LED Flashlights

to my eye my Surefire incan looks white

I don't disagree - I see it the same way -
BUT then I also see normal tungsten room lighting as white too......

That is until I have to see yellow on white or differentiate between shades of blue or even blue-green - then a quick flash with even a blue-ish LED will sort that out (I don't like cool blue LEDs either, and much prefer warmer tones).

I personally carry as part of my EDC (for well over 10 years now) an actual YELLOW Photon 2 LED light (see EDC - What's in Your Pocket(s)??) - that's how much I believe in seeing better under yellow light.

But the point of this thread is LEDs have now surpassed even the brightest incandescent flashlights including rivalling 1,000,000 candlepower spotlights - and brightness levels are getting beyond most normal indoors usage.

Of course like others I would prefer the development to concentrate more on improving tints -
but as always YMMV - there are lots of people who like cool white LEDs

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the T1 is gonna hurt surefires sales imho, its a direct competitor, SF had better wake up and smell the coffee imho.

As nice as the T1 looks, it's not even going to begin to touch the amount of sales generated by Surefire. How many government contracts does Fenix have again?
 
when i was still in the habit of maintaining planted fish tanks, there was a big discussion about cri
cri of 100 means it looks as it would under natural sunlight
but alot of things in the tank look much better under lighting with red phosphors, for example the cardinal tetras and most red plants
so wrt cri, ymmv
 
As nice as the T1 looks, it's not even going to begin to touch the amount of sales generated by Surefire.

This reminds me of the guy who back in 1985 said, "As nice as that Surefire looks, they're not even going to begin to touch the sales generated by Maglite". ;)

Well, maybe they don't, but they do pretty darned well anyway. :)
 
This reminds me of the guy who back in 1985 said, "As nice as that Surefire looks, they're not even going to begin to touch the sales generated by Maglite". ;)

Well, maybe they don't, but they do pretty darned well anyway. :)

Agreed Bronco. I'm just a regular guy and bought one. Showed it to the guys at the firehouse...they all have them now. Then on those times I break out my lights near State Troopers or Townies, I showed them my fenix. Now they have them.. and then....... :cool:

Not to bash maglite, I own several. I own a very cool and vintage 6 C Cell maglite that I carry when things look to get dicey. And no, I have never ever had to use it. But thats the point. ;)
 
As nice as the T1 looks, it's not even going to begin to touch the amount of sales generated by Surefire. How many government contracts does Fenix have again?

oh ya dont think it will hurt sales to private citizens?? being about 1/2 the price?? with all the pub they get on CPF?? we gotta agree to disagree on that lol.

since fenix is made in china i doubt they have many contracts with the UG govt FWIW.

my point is surefire had better get going in the R&D dept because fenix is right at there heels imho.
 
when i was still in the habit of maintaining planted fish tanks, there was a big discussion about cri
cri of 100 means it looks as it would under natural sunlight
but alot of things in the tank look much better under lighting with red phosphors, for example the cardinal tetras and most red plants
so wrt cri, ymmv

Thank you for that input - the main problem with a lot of quantifiable measurements - is that people tend to quote them without a full understanding.

CRI is a very good case in point -

CRI is useful - but it is incomplete for true color rendition -
as it does not take account of color temperature/bias.

As the quote I used says -

"An incandescent lamp, virtually by definition, has a Color Rendering Index (CRI) close to 100. This does not mean that an incandescent lamp is a perfect color rendering light source. It is not. It is very weak in blue, as anyone who has tried to sort out navy blues, royal blues and black under low levels of incandescent lighting. On the other hand, outdoor north sky daylight at 7500K is weak in red, so it isn't a "perfect" color rendering source either. Yet, it also has a CRI of 100 by definition.
...
Technically, CRI's can only be compared for sources that have the same Color Temperatures."
ref: About Light: Color Rendering

and I am speaking as someone who prefers warmer tones and has a definite leaning in favor of yellow biassed lights......
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I know that there is a great difference to my eye between a bluish LED light and an incan outdoors - I can see more better because of the better colors. And to my eye my Surefire incan looks white (they get yellow when the batteries start to fade), with most of my LED's appearing blue and cold in comparison. I'm not trying to be contentious, but just want to point out that there is still a place for incans, especially for outdoor use when good color rendering and long throw are important to the user.

I have a great throwing LED light - a maglight with a malkoff drop-in, and it does have excellent throw, but to my eye the bluish cold tint of it does not render colors as well as a powerful long throwing incan.

While there are undoubtably reasons why this is, and it may be somewhat subjective, to my eye the weakness of LED's today is color rendering, and throw (a single LED cannot match a powerful incan lamp yet).

This is best decided for yourself - take the LED and that old Surefire outside, and point it at a tree or woods 60 yards away, and see for yourself which one you think is best. Some may prefer the LED, but I think most people would prefer the incan for that use.

Regardless of this issue, those shots are great, and thanks for posting them!

I did this with the Rayovac and Surefire, projecting a beam from my back deck into the dry creek valley behind the house last summer. The color rendition of the trees and foliage was more accurate with the Surefire, and I could interpret the illuminated view with more detail. The Rayovac had more whiteness which washed out the details and made them harder to interpret.

The beam throw appeared equal - the Rayovac is rated 80 lumens to the Surefire's 60. Based on that test, I agree that color is important. But as a retired reservist who's done a share of night ops in places like JRTC, I don't think I need it as much as, say, a police officer searching a neighborhood.

Our eyes and brain have more experience with yellow light because of the sun, but it doesn't mean that its' the best tint to view at night. Blue white may not be either, it lacks delivering interpretable detail within our experience. And it's hard to say just what would be the better tint across the entire spectrum of what the eye may encounter, urban, suburban, or field. It's like lens coating for binoculars - deer hunters using something a bird watcher might despise. I really prefer the depth of field in military binoculars looking into a woodline, rather than accurate color rendition of a finch on the feeder.

As LED technology advances, I expect improvements there. In the meantime, I'll take the tradeoff and feed my lights Nimh AA/AAA rechargeables. There's less impact on my financial environment as they run a lot more of my personal life.
 
For those who are concerned about the cost of CR123A primary batteries (which are ridiculously expensive at all retail stores), and don't want to deal with rechargeables, I get mine from Amondotech.com for $1.00 each. Just buy a handfull at a time and you won't have to worry about availability or running out.

I sold my SF A2 after I got my Fenix P3D RB100. I also carry a Fenix P1D CE and the size, runtime, and brightness beats anything I've seen from SureFire, or any other company.

UnknownVT - Thank you for the illuminating images. I'd like to see some longer range comparisons between the Fenix and SureFire lights, to see how the greater lumen output of the LEDs compares to the traditionally better throw of incans.

Thanks
 
Medusaoblongata thanks for the info on the batteries! I am awaiting a new P3D. I'm also thinking about getting the T1 but am looking into other larger throwers so I can get the right amount of run time, flood, and throw. Of course, the power source matters too but I haven't figured it all out yet and there seems to be a lot of really good options available.
 
For those who are concerned about the cost of CR123A primary batteries (which are ridiculously expensive at all retail stores), and don't want to deal with rechargeables, I get mine from Amondotech.com for $1.00 each. Just buy a handfull at a time and you won't have to worry about availability or running out.

I sold my SF A2 after I got my Fenix P3D RB100. I also carry a Fenix P1D CE and the size, runtime, and brightness beats anything I've seen from SureFire, or any other company.

UnknownVT - Thank you for the illuminating images. I'd like to see some longer range comparisons between the Fenix and SureFire lights, to see how the greater lumen output of the LEDs compares to the traditionally better throw of incans.

Thanks

Fenix-store.com has them for about a dollar a battery as well.

Although, I have to say, I've been using two pairs of the no-name imported rechargeable 123a's for a little over a month now, and I'm very happy with them. Especially in the 5 minute charger!
 
unknownVT thanks for all the onfo !

Myself after i got my P3D my surefire E2E has not seen any pocket time and boy do cars move over now when i walk the dog !

My new T1 just lights the road up like a plane is landing .

I bought every memeber of my crew ( I'm a fire LT) a fenix L2d . That strobe is the best thing i have ever used in 17 years on the job for stopping traffic .
 
Just treated myself to a L0D, prob get here in 2 weeks.

I was interested to learn Surefire has a LED converter as I too havent kept up with flashlight tech, but at $120 for an E2 replacement head, I think I will give it a miss.

What model Fenix is equivalent to a E2 LED, and how much are they?
 
The thing that sets surefire out from other lights is there warranty and the way the lights are built. The thing about fenix, is sure there real bright, but how is the construction on them. Are you convinced that if you drop your flashlight onto the cement street any day of the week, you can just pick it up and continue use it, or will you have to fix it/ get a new one.
Surefire could be a little brighter...agreed...and there runtimes a little longer. But I know that if I get one I will never have to get a new one in my life ever. When I fork out 150.00$ for a light, I am not just spending it on the light, but on the warranty and that the company will stand behind there products 100%.
This is why surefire has earned my respect.
 
Question: When they say this T1 is waterproof, is that to mean resistant or proof? I doubt I'll go underwater with it but it would be nice to know.

They are waterproof in the sense that they have an O-ring, and thus are able to hold one atmo (~30 ft static) until such time as the O-ring breaks down (a long, long time, or until you soak the light in petroleum products). Some guy put one in a water bottle for days without any leakage.

Really, it's not hard to make a screw-cap waterproof to 1 atmo. As long as the O-ring physically exist somewhere near the threading and has some volume, and the designer hasn't overtly drunk on the job, it'll be pretty hard to make it not waterproof.

Being able to take pressure, though, as with divelights, are a completely different matter altogether. Surefires aren't divable either, for example...

The thing about fenix, is sure there real bright, but how is the construction on them. Are you convinced that if you drop your flashlight onto the cement street any day of the week, you can just pick it up and continue use it, or will you have to fix it/ get a new one.

Yes, I would trust my Fenix to take any amount of reasonable abuse, including dropping it onto the street.

This guy took it to somewhat of an extreme. The Fenix was immersed for 6 hours, then dragged on a stony trail for a quarter mile, then dragged on cement for an eighth mile, then most of a mile in swampy mud, then another mile on urban roads. After more than 2 miles of dragging and impacts, taking care to abuse especially the head assembly, the light was still waterproof, works perfectly, and the only sign were a large number of small dents in the level-3 anodized aluminum.

An aluminum surefire can survive the same test. A Nitrolon-bodied Surefire leaked afterwards.

This is not a rant for or against Fenix, or for or against Surefire. I own and love both brands of lights. It's a notice for you to wake up and apply some basic engineering view to this thing. It's a flashlight. Not a delicately honed knife edge, not a mechanically perfect pistol. It's a flashlight. The warm, fuzzy feeling you get when you see Sig Sauers and H&Ks being overbuilt is worthless with Surefires.

Why? It's not a durned mechanical device! It has no pins, no gears, no sears, no lugs, no brushed motor assemblies to break, no tolerances to loosen. The most complex mechanical part is the clicky switch! Everything is solid-state, and therefore barring physical circuitry damage, there is no easy way to break a modern LED flashlight - by which time you must have needed to completely destroy the body.

Failure rates from damage for both brands are pretty much nil. There's a few reasons to buy Surefire: better ergonomics, better aesthetics, better compatibility with firearms rails, better reflector design, better beam shape, and more choices for different roles. There's a few reasons to buy Fenix: cheaper prices, the latest and brightest technology. Reliability shouldn't be the reason though - because again, it's a flashlight :).
 
I think there are important mechanical/electronics considerations to flashlights. Quality of materials, machining, and ruggedness of construction can be very important to a flashlight. The quality of the threads. One or two o-rings? The operation, quality, and feel of the switch. Are the electronics reliable, and are they potted? Does the light have sufficient heatsinking? I have broke a few modern LED flashlights (if you can call a flashlight not working right breaking). There is a thread on CPF now with a Surefire Kroma taken apart, and there are very few flashlight mfg's that can even approach this level of technology - there are many tolerance issues with the Kroma and the U2 (great controls on these, IMO). The chinese flashlights are decent flashlights, but to me, for a number of reasons, I will gladly pay more for a US made or custom made light. In my experience, they are more reliable, but mileage may vary.
 
UnknownVT

Do you have any experience with the Pelican 7060 which was designed for the LAPD?

Thanks
Luke
 
Just a follow up on color rendition -
this had intrigued me to find that most incandescent lights have CRI (Color-Rendering Index) close to 100 (perfect) by definition -
yet I know there are difficulties differentiating certains colors under those lights -

So I thought I'd do my own ad-hoc experiment - to compare LED with xenon based lights using a common but fairly demanding "target" - a Rand McNally map - which most people have easy access to - (I used Gainesville, Florida area from the 1991 edition) - camera set on fixed daylight white balance.

First, reference lighting conditions -

White Reference .................................................................. Tungsten Room lighting
WhiteRef2.jpg
Room2.jpg


LED and Xenon Lights -
FenixT1_2.jpg
Scorpion3.jpg

SF9P2.jpg
FenixL2Drb100_2.jpg

FenixL2T2.jpg


The white reference shot (which was a scan) probably has the best color balance and rendition - followed by the LEDs - they are close - but if I had to rank them, my preference was - Rebel 100, Luxeon III, then the Cree Q5 - but like I said they are close and in any real use where there is no direct side-by-side comparison they would be more or less equal.

The xenons were better than the regular tungsten room lighting - (2x 60 watt "soft-white" bulbs) - with the SureFire 9P a bit better than the Scorpion (the SF 9P using 3x CR123 - 9 volts would be burning the xenon a bit hotter - therefore "whiter") but all the incandescent lights had the problem differentiating yellows against the white of the map - eg: look at the background under Fairbanks (top left of map) on any of the incand lights - is that yellow? (no, actually it's plain white background), also look at the interstate 75 - that's a yellow background can that really be made out under the incands - and is that line really blue - if one didn't know it beforehand?

The LEDs do show weakness in rendering reds - but for map reading this is not really a big problem.

So despite much lower CRI - LEDs seem to "render" the simple colors on a map quite a bit better to my eyes than incandescent xenon lights.

ref: About Light: Color Rendering

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Throw Vs. Output -

This is an important issue.

Many years ago I used to compare flashlights by how far they could reach
- and the ones that reached furthest I regarded as brightest.....

What could be simpler and more commonsense?

Until I realized that a simple 60watt household light bulb was on average about 840 lumens
and even the brightst flashlights like the SureFire 6P and G2's were only 60 lumens - the bulb was some 14x brighter -
yet most of us know that the flashlights would project much further.

The ads for these Xenon lithium lights claim they were as bright as a MagLite 3D - yet the Mag 3D reaches further still......

So what gives?

Try this example outdoors - target is pampas grass heads -
Dorcy3D.jpg
pampasSF9P.jpg

The Dorcy 3D is so bright in its hotspot that the target pampas grass heads are burnt-out/overexposed - so it would seem brighter?
Ah! as some would observe - the SureFire 9P spreads its light out more and more is illuminated -

There lies the crux of the matter -

Now look at the indoors stairway beamshots -
Stairs_Dorcy3D.jpg
StairsSF9P.jpg

regardless of color influence, it is pretty obvious to me which is brighter now.....

Just the facts m'am -
the LED used in the Dorcy 3D is a mere 1 watt Luxeon (pretty old hat now) bin RWAH - that's about 45 lumens total -
whereas the SureFure 9P is rated at 105 lumens.
So the Dorcy 3D should be less than 1/2 the brightness of the SureFire 9P .....
but its large and well designed reflector concentrates light and makes it throw its 45 lumens further.

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Vincent
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I had a chance to test my flashlights....

Two days ago there were some very strong winds over here, lots of trees falling which damaged electrical lines, we were without electricity for a good part of two days (I believe 250,000 people were without electricity according to news heard on our battery operated radio).

About the flashlights:

I had two on me when the lights went out, a 2 AAA Gerber in my shirt pocket and a small solar cell rechargeable on a keychain, the keychain light never got any use, I used the Gerber to light my way upstairs and got my Petzel Tika headlamp, which gave very little output (it's old and I haven't changed batteries in years), yet it proved to be most practical being so light and comfortable and leaving both hands free.

I opened the drawer where I keep some LED flashlights and found not less than 10 to distribute around to the family.

I replaced my 2 AAA Gerber with the 2AA Maglite to carry in my pocket so that I could have some strong light if needed.

The ladies (wife and daughters) picked the larger ones: two simple Energizer brand and a no-name Chinese made (he he, so I guess size does count...), while my nephew took the 2 AA Nite-Ize Maglite.

All in all it seemed that having any light was fine, whether it was white or blue, weak or strong, wide or narrow beam didn't matter as long as you could move around and see things. I have to say that I did find the headlight very handy.

Also, candles were very useful and I should make sure that my kerosene lamp has some fuel and is ready for the next time.

Luis
 
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