-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Legal Woes... (gravity knife)
- Thread starter Bluesock943
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 2,845
Hopefully, you'll get it dropped on probable cause grounds - they had no real reason to stop you. And a "bulge in your pocket" doesn't quite cut it.
Worst case scenario, they could probably slap you with a felony for having what is indeed a "gravity knife" under the definition of the law. Unfortunately, the law hasn't really kept pace with modern machining and manufacturing techniques, not to mention the loss of the board-stiff backspring. So total BS, but it could happen.
Hopefully, at least a smidgen of rationality will prevail. It would cost $$$$$ to lock up a straight-arrow citizen for a $50 knife.
Good luck!
Worst case scenario, they could probably slap you with a felony for having what is indeed a "gravity knife" under the definition of the law. Unfortunately, the law hasn't really kept pace with modern machining and manufacturing techniques, not to mention the loss of the board-stiff backspring. So total BS, but it could happen.
Hopefully, at least a smidgen of rationality will prevail. It would cost $$$$$ to lock up a straight-arrow citizen for a $50 knife.
Good luck!
This issue really bugs me, as it does all of you.
I have been involved with attempting to defend three gravity knife cases in NYC in the past three years, all unsuccessfully.
Even an affidavit to the judge by a legitiamte expert, explaining what a "true" gravity knife really is, was of no help.
The problem is the statute. The way it is worded, if it can be flicked (and it locks), it's illegal.
We are at the mercy of the discretion of the police officers, district attorneys and judges on this one. Cross your fingers or write your representatives. I've done both.
As for AKTI, I made a push last year to get them involved in legislative reform. I even offered the assistance of a NYC law school law clinic, and made a modest donation to AKTI to put my money where my mouth is.
No interest.
The reality is, plenty of people carry common pocket knives for legitimate utilitiy in NYC every day without a problem. What they don't know is, an aggressive judicial system could land them in Riker's Island for a weekend. Not a pleasant thought.
Use your own judgment, but if you want to play it safe, stick to SAKs in NYC.
Seth
I have been involved with attempting to defend three gravity knife cases in NYC in the past three years, all unsuccessfully.
Even an affidavit to the judge by a legitiamte expert, explaining what a "true" gravity knife really is, was of no help.
The problem is the statute. The way it is worded, if it can be flicked (and it locks), it's illegal.
We are at the mercy of the discretion of the police officers, district attorneys and judges on this one. Cross your fingers or write your representatives. I've done both.
As for AKTI, I made a push last year to get them involved in legislative reform. I even offered the assistance of a NYC law school law clinic, and made a modest donation to AKTI to put my money where my mouth is.
No interest.
The reality is, plenty of people carry common pocket knives for legitimate utilitiy in NYC every day without a problem. What they don't know is, an aggressive judicial system could land them in Riker's Island for a weekend. Not a pleasant thought.
Use your own judgment, but if you want to play it safe, stick to SAKs in NYC.
Seth
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2003
- Messages
- 2,315
This sounds like the situation in Canada. If the knife can be opened... at all... without touching the blade, it can be considered a "gravity knife". Several Canadians have posited that Customs has a large, custom-built machine specifically to fling knives around with 100 Gs of force to test for this.
Sorry, I should have been more clear.
The cases were successfully defended in many respects, just not on the gravity knife issue itself.
One case-- out of state college kid, dubious circumstances for the stop. Pled to the charge, got an acquittal in contemplation of dismissal (best one could hope for).
Second case -- got it dropped because the stop was unjustified
Third case -- charge reduced to violation (time served, for a weekend in Riker's Island)
So, in terms of those three, the penalties were pretty low, all things considered.
The problem is, all three individual were arrested, processed and detained on the charge of possession of a gravity knife.
I also don't mean to suggest there have only been three such cases-- in fact, they're more common than I first thought. A legal aid friend tells me they come up pretty regularly, as does a lawyer friend who supervises a law school clinical program.
So, from what I have seen, the actual penalty is likely to be low. But that's all relative. For some people (most people?), a trip through the "system" in NYC or a weekend in Riker's Island is a real nightmare.
Seth
The cases were successfully defended in many respects, just not on the gravity knife issue itself.
One case-- out of state college kid, dubious circumstances for the stop. Pled to the charge, got an acquittal in contemplation of dismissal (best one could hope for).
Second case -- got it dropped because the stop was unjustified
Third case -- charge reduced to violation (time served, for a weekend in Riker's Island)
So, in terms of those three, the penalties were pretty low, all things considered.
The problem is, all three individual were arrested, processed and detained on the charge of possession of a gravity knife.
I also don't mean to suggest there have only been three such cases-- in fact, they're more common than I first thought. A legal aid friend tells me they come up pretty regularly, as does a lawyer friend who supervises a law school clinical program.
So, from what I have seen, the actual penalty is likely to be low. But that's all relative. For some people (most people?), a trip through the "system" in NYC or a weekend in Riker's Island is a real nightmare.
Seth
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Messages
- 63
Newbie here, just registered this evening and came upon this post.
First off, sorry that you had this happen to you.
I've spoken to many veteran cops and they stated a "bulge" in and of itself is not enough reason to stop someone.
I remember as a teen, a friend was stopped in the subway with a "007" the cop just took it and sent us on our way. I've also remember as a teen, I decided not to ride my bike home and to take it on the subway, I was issued a summons violation for "bulky package" on the subway. So, Yes, cops have a lot of discretion and some are "ball busters".
Just last summer when the head of homeland security visited 1PP, I went by and asked some undercover cops when will the thing be over, they saw my BM clipped and just stared at it and mumbled "don't know".
I've been unemployed for almost 3 yrs now and helping the family business as a construction consultant. I have on my belt a knife sheath carrying my BM 730, a Luftkin tape rule and PDA, and always a dress shirt.
I too, don't want to go through "the system".
First off, sorry that you had this happen to you.
I've spoken to many veteran cops and they stated a "bulge" in and of itself is not enough reason to stop someone.
I remember as a teen, a friend was stopped in the subway with a "007" the cop just took it and sent us on our way. I've also remember as a teen, I decided not to ride my bike home and to take it on the subway, I was issued a summons violation for "bulky package" on the subway. So, Yes, cops have a lot of discretion and some are "ball busters".
Just last summer when the head of homeland security visited 1PP, I went by and asked some undercover cops when will the thing be over, they saw my BM clipped and just stared at it and mumbled "don't know".
I've been unemployed for almost 3 yrs now and helping the family business as a construction consultant. I have on my belt a knife sheath carrying my BM 730, a Luftkin tape rule and PDA, and always a dress shirt.
I too, don't want to go through "the system".
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2004
- Messages
- 51
Markus, give me a call (248) 420-5095, bad cell reception, keep trying
David
David
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2005
- Messages
- 68
sunrunner said:
Sorry to lead the topic, astray, but after reading this article i would like to know if it is true, if buttterfly knives are not considered gravity knives, and if so, what are they considered in terms of the terms listed in the laws. My state is california, but any info would be good.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2005
- Messages
- 3
Hello,
Thought Id post an update to my situation as this thread has continued over the past couple months. Originally my attorney thought that this could be negotiated with the DA before I ever went to court. Unfortunately, it seems that regardless of my circumstances he was not going to dismiss the case. There was an offer of me pleading guilty and the charge would be reduced to a violation. This was also to be accompanied by several days of community service. Supposedly this would also seal my record and I could go about my life. However, several attorneys and former police officers advised me against this as it is used as a ploy and there would be question of whether my record would or would not be sealed.
First court date came and went uneventfully. My attorney filed for a continuance with the hope that he could meet with the DA and discuss this further trying to get him to dismiss the case. The DA still would not drop the case. In the meantime, my attorney filed several motions with the judge to have the case dropped.
Second court date, the judge seemed pretty perturbed that my case was before her. She said that if she dismissed my case, shed have to dismiss 90% of gravity knife cases. However, she was not inclined to dismiss it and thus instructed my attorney to go back and try to negotiate with the DA. The offer for me to plead guilty to a violation was also taken off the table. At this point, I do not care about any deal. I am not about to plead guilty to something I feel is not a crime. My attorney informed me that judges are pretty loathe to dismiss cases such as this as it goes to give the general public the impression that they are soft on crime. Thus, if the DA can be inclined to dismiss, the judges reputation isnt tarnished. My attorney was pretty annoyed that the judge wouldnt stand by her convictions.
In the meanwhile, I have filed a civil complaint against the officers for an unlawful stop. Well see where that goes. Given the state of things now and the people whom Ive already spoken with, it wouldnt matter if I had DNA and videotape evidence of the police molesting my dog, the investigators within the police department wouldnt believe it. Sadly I do not believe the NYC police department is any better than an organized crime syndicate. I do not want to feel the police are adversaries, but I cannot help it at this point.
It is very unfortunate that our legal system is so obtuse at times. Over the past couple months, this whole situation has been very trying. The first few weeks I walked around in a sort of panic. Every time I saw police I had to stop and think about what I was doing. Is there anything about me that might raise suspicion? What do I have on my person that might be considered illegal? If I have a pen in my pocket am I going to be accused of vandalism by graffiti? Having the feeling that you may have to justify your existence to the police when you are not a criminal nor have ever been in any trouble before is sad.
Regrettably, my thoughts on our legal system are equally negative. When we have district attorneys who are more interested in prosecuting anything they possibly can for statistical numbers rather than actually looking at the cases and the people whom they are affecting, how can there possibly be any respect from the general public? If this continues on in this direction as it seems it will, I will end up spending upwards of $10,000 on legal fees. Probably more. Thus, I look at the DA and wonder why they would pursue a case like mine. I have no prior record. I was not out menacing anyone. Ive never thought of my knife as nothing more than a tool, but to prove this is going to cost me more than I earned after I paid my bills last year.
I must give praise to Sal Glesser at Spyderco and several of his employees. I contacted Spyderco and they were very helpful in giving me information regarding the design of the knife I had and why it shouldnt be considered a gravity knife. Mr. Glesser went so far as to send me a signed letter on Spyderco stationery giving the description of what he had told me so that my attorney could use it in my defense. Where things stand now, obviously I will not be carrying anything that has a chance of being misconstrued as a gravity knife, but I know in the future Spyderco will have my business again. I will not speak for any other companies, but this level of commitment to customers should speak to everyone on this forum regarding which manufacturers they choose to give their business to.
Regarding some of the more recent posts,
Seth,
I would be interested in speaking with you regarding the cases you were involved in if you are available. At this point, I am so angry that there is no way I will plead guilty to anything, but I would like to hear more of what you might have to say. If you are available, please contact me at the following email address. markus@oldscratchfabrications.com
TiberiusBkirk,
Ive also spoken with several former police officers regarding the bulge reasoning for stopping me. While maybe they shouldnt be doing it, in New York City it seems to be fairly standard practice. While I may not like it, Im not about to argue with someone who has minimal firearms training and is just itching to pull a Glock out.
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. Its comforting to know that there are a few sane people left out there.
-Markus
Thought Id post an update to my situation as this thread has continued over the past couple months. Originally my attorney thought that this could be negotiated with the DA before I ever went to court. Unfortunately, it seems that regardless of my circumstances he was not going to dismiss the case. There was an offer of me pleading guilty and the charge would be reduced to a violation. This was also to be accompanied by several days of community service. Supposedly this would also seal my record and I could go about my life. However, several attorneys and former police officers advised me against this as it is used as a ploy and there would be question of whether my record would or would not be sealed.
First court date came and went uneventfully. My attorney filed for a continuance with the hope that he could meet with the DA and discuss this further trying to get him to dismiss the case. The DA still would not drop the case. In the meantime, my attorney filed several motions with the judge to have the case dropped.
Second court date, the judge seemed pretty perturbed that my case was before her. She said that if she dismissed my case, shed have to dismiss 90% of gravity knife cases. However, she was not inclined to dismiss it and thus instructed my attorney to go back and try to negotiate with the DA. The offer for me to plead guilty to a violation was also taken off the table. At this point, I do not care about any deal. I am not about to plead guilty to something I feel is not a crime. My attorney informed me that judges are pretty loathe to dismiss cases such as this as it goes to give the general public the impression that they are soft on crime. Thus, if the DA can be inclined to dismiss, the judges reputation isnt tarnished. My attorney was pretty annoyed that the judge wouldnt stand by her convictions.
In the meanwhile, I have filed a civil complaint against the officers for an unlawful stop. Well see where that goes. Given the state of things now and the people whom Ive already spoken with, it wouldnt matter if I had DNA and videotape evidence of the police molesting my dog, the investigators within the police department wouldnt believe it. Sadly I do not believe the NYC police department is any better than an organized crime syndicate. I do not want to feel the police are adversaries, but I cannot help it at this point.
It is very unfortunate that our legal system is so obtuse at times. Over the past couple months, this whole situation has been very trying. The first few weeks I walked around in a sort of panic. Every time I saw police I had to stop and think about what I was doing. Is there anything about me that might raise suspicion? What do I have on my person that might be considered illegal? If I have a pen in my pocket am I going to be accused of vandalism by graffiti? Having the feeling that you may have to justify your existence to the police when you are not a criminal nor have ever been in any trouble before is sad.
Regrettably, my thoughts on our legal system are equally negative. When we have district attorneys who are more interested in prosecuting anything they possibly can for statistical numbers rather than actually looking at the cases and the people whom they are affecting, how can there possibly be any respect from the general public? If this continues on in this direction as it seems it will, I will end up spending upwards of $10,000 on legal fees. Probably more. Thus, I look at the DA and wonder why they would pursue a case like mine. I have no prior record. I was not out menacing anyone. Ive never thought of my knife as nothing more than a tool, but to prove this is going to cost me more than I earned after I paid my bills last year.
I must give praise to Sal Glesser at Spyderco and several of his employees. I contacted Spyderco and they were very helpful in giving me information regarding the design of the knife I had and why it shouldnt be considered a gravity knife. Mr. Glesser went so far as to send me a signed letter on Spyderco stationery giving the description of what he had told me so that my attorney could use it in my defense. Where things stand now, obviously I will not be carrying anything that has a chance of being misconstrued as a gravity knife, but I know in the future Spyderco will have my business again. I will not speak for any other companies, but this level of commitment to customers should speak to everyone on this forum regarding which manufacturers they choose to give their business to.
Regarding some of the more recent posts,
Seth,
I would be interested in speaking with you regarding the cases you were involved in if you are available. At this point, I am so angry that there is no way I will plead guilty to anything, but I would like to hear more of what you might have to say. If you are available, please contact me at the following email address. markus@oldscratchfabrications.com
TiberiusBkirk,
Ive also spoken with several former police officers regarding the bulge reasoning for stopping me. While maybe they shouldnt be doing it, in New York City it seems to be fairly standard practice. While I may not like it, Im not about to argue with someone who has minimal firearms training and is just itching to pull a Glock out.
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. Its comforting to know that there are a few sane people left out there.
-Markus
I was arrested and processed in Manhattan last fall (Sept 1), for carrying a Buck Alpha folder in a closed sheath on my belt. I was travelling for a month at the time, and had used the knife for all kinds of tasks, and told the officer so when he asked why I was carrying it. I also told him I was working as a stagehand at the club I was standing in front of at the time, which was true.
Nevertheless, I was cuffed and put behind bars for 2 hours. Keep in mind, this was the week of the RNC, and security was out of hand all over town. Eventually, I was "summonsed and released," and given a court date. I live in Oakland CA, so there was no way I was going to pay to come back and go to court, possibly more than once. So I got a NYC lawyer to appear for me, and she ended up getting the case thrown out. It cost me $250 for one morning of her time, which is cheaper than a round-trip ticket (usually). The case was thrown out, but I still can't get any info whether or not I now have a record (the officer said it was criminal possession of a deadly weapon).
I was clowned by some on this forum for wearing a sheath, which is ballsier than you, since it was in your pocket. I can't believe they stopped you for that. The officer told ME it was fine to carry a samurai sword, as long as it wasn't openly visible (in public).
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
Nevertheless, I was cuffed and put behind bars for 2 hours. Keep in mind, this was the week of the RNC, and security was out of hand all over town. Eventually, I was "summonsed and released," and given a court date. I live in Oakland CA, so there was no way I was going to pay to come back and go to court, possibly more than once. So I got a NYC lawyer to appear for me, and she ended up getting the case thrown out. It cost me $250 for one morning of her time, which is cheaper than a round-trip ticket (usually). The case was thrown out, but I still can't get any info whether or not I now have a record (the officer said it was criminal possession of a deadly weapon).
I was clowned by some on this forum for wearing a sheath, which is ballsier than you, since it was in your pocket. I can't believe they stopped you for that. The officer told ME it was fine to carry a samurai sword, as long as it wasn't openly visible (in public).
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
