LEO opinions regarding civilians concealed knife carry?

H

Harikari

Joined
Sep 27, 1999
Messages
104
In the just resent (archives) section this topic was asked , I want this topic to continue in a forum in which it is still possible to post/reply.

If a civilian has a folder in his pocket with the clip of the folder visible on the outside of the pocket , IS this "open carry" or still considered "concealed"?

My LEO buddies here in GA. tell me not to worry about it. Maybe they don't have to worry about it , but I DO. The LEO tell me they take concealed knifes off perps all the time & it is a "hummy charge" and they hardly ever charge them with it because the other charges are more serious. (DUI , Drugdealers)
They do confiscate alot of folders without filing charges.

I could go to jail on a "hummy charge" if a LEO was having a bad day. (POP) "Pi**ing of a Police officer".

I feel if John Doe does something wrong charge him with a concealed weapon. If John Doe has done nothing wrong then he should be sent on his (free) way with his knife.

 
Somebody has to have an opinion or have had an experience with civilian knife carry? Whether "open" or "concealed"? Am I the only one that's worried about going to jail for carrying a knife on my person? Lets hear it!
 
All too many replys have given you the answer to this topic. And that is.....

There is no answer! Too much discretion is given to the LEO's, local municipalities that can and do overide state laws, and the Courts.

I have experience with this, and I am telling you that if you see the need...risk the misdemeanor conviction that will probably never happen (if you carry properly) and potentially save your life!

It is always better to conceal versus questionably carry even a clipped folder openly on your pocket. Almost all municipalities have laws that deal with "Causing undo public alarm". That means if a liberal sees your clip and makes a case that they are unduly alarmed...you could be cited.

Discretion and common sense are the governing issues to address here, should you decide that the need outweighs the penalty. Several of these have been posted before on your topic.

You bring me the law that you believe will cover you in every situation you encounter and I will show you at least one situation that will leave you exposed to prosecution. Even if it's......The LEO was having a Bad Day".

Also, you may want to ask yourself this. "If I am so concerned about comitting a misdemeanor versus potentially saving my life...do have what it takes to enter into mortal combat and win?

This is a much more serious and valid concern in my opinin.

Again you asked for response from someone who has experience. You just got it.

Wishing you well,

ACK
 
No need to get testy. Just because I wanted to continue my topic after it was converted to the archives section which brought it to a premature unforeseen conclusion. This being an exclusive knife forum it would be rational that "civilian knife carry" would be of "principal concern" & that there would be a "huge wealth of knowledge" on a topic which affects all who carry knifes on a daily basis. Especially on a knife forum dedicated to knifes. I will most likely ask this question again , so get use to it. Okey Dokey? Thanks.



[This message has been edited by Harikari (edited 05 October 1999).]
 
What's with this "no need to get testy" "Okey Dokey?" crap? Why act like a jerk just because someone answered your post? TAckerman is right,there are just too many variables to give you a "right" answer.BTW,we might have to get used to you reapeatedly asking this question but you will have to get used to people answering your question the way they want to.

Bobby
 
No need to get testy , Okey Dokey...?


[This message has been edited by Harikari (edited 06 October 1999).]
 
Gentlemen...

[This message has been edited by Professor (edited 05 October 1999).]
 
As you've already seen, your question isn't easy to answer, primarily due to variations in laws in different jurisdictions. The simple answer to your original question is: Where I work in Colorado, it's not concealed if the end of the knife and clip are visible. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply in Georgia.
Tonk
 
Thankyou Tatonka162 ,

Tatonka162 if the "clip" is visible , the knife is not considered concealed. This is what I was hoping to hear. (Not we already answered your question!) Thank you.
 
Alright, try looking at it like this;

1. Do police departments/acadamies provide specific training for knives?
2. Are officers allowed to carry knives without training?
3. If so, what gives the officer the right to carry, but not you?
4. Does a badge create instant intelligence?
5. Does a knife have many uses outside of defense?

Once you have answered these questions, you will come to the same conclusions that I have.

1. I know more about knives than ANY LEO that I have ever met (this is a personal truth, it may not be so for you).
2. My life is worth more to me than any damn sheep feeling "unsafe/alarmed" (protection of my life warrants alarming the sheeple if necessary in my opinion).
3. I have more knife training than anyone that I know on a personal basis (once again, personal truth).
4. I KNOW that a badge does not create intelligance.
5. I you are informed enough, you can talk almost any cop out of confiscation/arrest for knives.
6. In the end it comes down to one thing; the center of the universe is exactly two inches behind the middle of my forehead, and I WILL do whatever is necessary to protect it (maybe it's just me
wink.gif
).

I've never cared for laws that are designed "with your safty in mind." Being as I know that I am far more capable of defending myself than any gov't. organization, I choose to disreguard laws that inhibit me from defending myself. If I thought it necessary, I'd buy a rocket launcher- reguardless of the illegality of it.

******* DISCLAIMER!!!! ********

The above is my personal views and I am in no way suggesting that you should do anything that violates local, federal, or state laws; international treaties; the Geneva Convention; or any other law, in any way, shape or form.
Neither an I suggesting that you should relate to ant LEO that you heard the above from me. In fact, you never even heard of me.
smile.gif
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But...... do what you must.


Joe
 
Tantonka,

I also live in CO. You stated that if the clip and end of a knife are visible, it is not considered a concealed weapon here. Where did you get this information? I am not debating it, but I am curious as to how you found this out. I have been searching for laws and court cases concerning this for some time and have found nothing.

By the way, did you know that blade length in CO is measured from the tip of the knife to the pivot joint? What a bummer! I started a thread called "Bad Law" about this a while ago. You might want to search for it if you're interested.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 06 October 1999).]
 
You are getting answers.

Here in Cali we have State laws and individual jurisdictional laws. James (Mattis) is more or less an expert on LA regional laws and even he will admit to ignorance. Point being that there is no answer and even if you are right, you could be wrong, though right, and never see you day in court.

Of course you can push for some kind of Federal laws on knives and end up with mirror gun laws...but of course we all know its all better when the Feds are involved isn't it.

Point is, knives and knife laws are dicey and you can be screwed blue even when the law is on your side. You can be a mensch or wonder what went wrong.
 
O.K......

I also live in Colorado and I stated that "you show me a law that has no loopholes and I will find the exception." (Paraphrased)

I also have lived in Colorado for 18 years and even though the State Law allows you to carry open i.e., visible clip etc., this is exactly the State Law that can be overidden by local municipal laws.

The city and county of Denver is the example of "Causing Undue Pulic Alarm" statute I referred to in my initial post.

You can be incarcerated for causing "undue public alarm" in the city and county of Denver with your exposed clip "Dangerous Weapon" (another ambiquous legal statute term in Colorado). What constitues "UNDUE"? It's totally up to the LEO answering the call on whether or not "THEY THINK" you have a "LEGITIMATE REASON" to be carrying a "DANGEROUS WEAPON". This law overides the State law mentioned above regarding exposed carry.

By the way...the second your shirt tail or any other piece of clothing covers your clip, you now can be prosecuted for carrying a concealed deadly weapon.

Again, I have experience on this matter.

ACK
 
try calling the police dept. and asking them the specific laws on knife carry, concealed or not, and what size blade you can carry when.
 
Better yet....
Call the police department 5 times and ask to speak to a different individual each time and see if you get the 5 same answers.

I'll bet you a steak dinner you won't.

And then.....
Call all the police departments that have jurisdiction in all the areas you would be carrying in (this means city, county, township, unincorporated counties etc.) and do the same thing.

I'll bet you a lobster dinner that you won't get consistent answers.

Why?......
1. They don't know. (There are too many laws and too many details in each law. It's not their fault)
2. They will put their own discretionary/ opinionated spin on it, and...
3. The laws in each municipality can and do differ.

So, here is the "Iron Clad Answer" to your dilemma....cary a different knife in a different manner for each municipality you will drive through or be present in and you've got it knocked.

Oops.....I forgot. You may still have to deal with "Undue Public Alarm" statutes and LEO discretion on "Possession of a Deadly Weapon". All of which are not "Iron Clad"! They are "Gray Areas" at best.

Just trying to help everyone see how dim the light is on this subject.

Again, I have experience on this.

Thanx for reading.

ACK
 
I have to agree that there is a wide gap between different LEO's interpretation of a weapon-statute. In my agency, we have lots of confusion on this topic...but generally speaking, an Officer isn't gonna pull a person into court over a pocket knife (UNLESS they commit contempt of cop). We have one of those local ordinances which is more restrictive than state law. It limits possession anywhere on one's person whether concealed or not a knife with a blade over 3" a misdemeanor. Of course, how we come to know that someone is carrying said knife is paramount. If we see someone walking around the mall minding his/her own biz, they most likely will continue unmolested. Otherwise...it's just another good reason for us to "Chat". These further illustrate the answers already received from many, that you will not be able to count 100% on one opinion (unless that opinion is possibly from the state's attorney general or high court)

As to the somewhat sarcastic question raised about what special rights I have to carry a knife, the State of Michigan has made that clear under statute. Peace Officers are exempt from CCW statute here. (Hell, they even allow tourist out of state LEO's to carry in Michigan) Your state may vary.
 
Guys, like I said, it's not an easy question. If I knew how to underline, the statement "where I work" in my original post would be underlined, bold face and caps. I have no idea about laws in other jurisdictions. When I go to other states, I can't carry a pistol and I assume their laws regarding concealed weapons are different than ours. I know someone will object that LEO's stick together and I don't have to worry about it. That's just not true and any brush I would ever have with another law enforcement agency would be the end of my career, period.

Cerulean, Where I Work, it's not concealed if part of the knife and the clip are showing. I don't know if this came from case law, or if it's just common sense - I can see the knife, it's recognizable as a knife, it's not concealed. Also, Where I Work, the blade is measured from the tip to the handle (not the pivot, I'm only interested in the depth it will penetrate). I'm not arguing that no-one measures it that way, but we don't.

Also, I wouldn't argue with any of the points Tackerman made above. The overlapping state and local laws are the way the system is set up, LEO's just interpret and enforce the laws in their area.
Tonk

[This message has been edited by Tatonka162 (edited 07 October 1999).]
 
I am not LEO but I will weigh in with my own personal experience.

Right, Wrong or Indifferent, the way you dress and conduct yourself has a far greater influence on whether the knife in your pocket is considered a concealed weapon than the laws do.

Is this fair? Probably not. But realizing it can go a long way toward avoiding trouble.

Let's face it Law Enforcement Officers are human beings and the Knife Laws are too numerous and inconsistent for them not to use personal judgement.

My experience has been that most Law Enforcement Officers are not interested in hassling innocent civilians. Many are interested in heading off potential trouble before it starts.

So, if you look like trouble or talk like trouble and have a knife that MIGHT be a violation of Concealed Weapons laws they are probably going to talk to you about it and you may lose your knife or your freedom.

What does trouble look or talk like? I am not sure. I guess it varies from officer to officer based on experience. I have been fortunate enough to not fit the profile so far.
 
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