I wouldn't say less is more, I'd say it's just what it is. A small, relatively thin (but not too thin so it does not flex too much) fixed blade knife is the only reasonable choice for small tasks that require precision. A simple example being the Finnish puukko. For anyone who uses knives as tools for a lot of work, I would think it would be hard not to like such small knives. They do their job, and they do it more efficiently than larger and more cumbersome knives would do those same tasks, so what's not to like? Sure, they won't chop like a big bowie, but that's what the big bowies (not to mention axes) are for. Small knives, large knives... as long as it's a good knife, I like them all.
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Less is more
- Thread starter Rotte
- Start date
First off, I am a big knife guy...bash away
Maybe I am out of line here, and I am starting a fight, but...
I seem to see A LOT of guys complaining about choils on 3-4" knives, saying they are a waste, and such, but then I read a thread like this talking about how they like smaller fixed blades. To me it would seem a 3-4" blade with a choil gives you the best of both worlds. Maybe some of you anti-choil, small knife loving guys can set me straight on this.
BTW those are some good looking knives, even to a big knife lover like me.
Maybe I am out of line here, and I am starting a fight, but...
I seem to see A LOT of guys complaining about choils on 3-4" knives, saying they are a waste, and such, but then I read a thread like this talking about how they like smaller fixed blades. To me it would seem a 3-4" blade with a choil gives you the best of both worlds. Maybe some of you anti-choil, small knife loving guys can set me straight on this.
BTW those are some good looking knives, even to a big knife lover like me.
First off, I am a big knife guy...bash away
Maybe I am out of line here, and I am starting a fight, but...
I seem to see A LOT of guys complaining about choils on 3-4" knives, saying they are a waste, and such, but then I read a thread like this talking about how they like smaller fixed blades. To me it would seem a 3-4" blade with a choil gives you the best of both worlds. Maybe some of you anti-choil, small knife loving guys can set me straight on this.
BTW those are some good looking knives, even to a big knife lover like me.
Hey, you'll get no bashing from me. I like big knives. But then, I like small knives, too. I like any knife that does its job. :thumbup:
I don't understand the logic behind your idea that a 3-4" blade with a choil gives you the best of both worlds though. Why would it do that? The whole problem with choils is that they 1) take the cutting edge farther away from the hand, which means less control and less power applied in precise cuts; 2) get stuff snagging on them in longer cuts; and 3) when you "choke up" on the choil to take your hand back right next to the cutting edge for added control (and in larger knives for a better balance of the blade) it screws up ergonomics, because it leaves you holding partly the bare metal blade and partly the handle. It's quite obvious, really. Of course, any possible finger guard will also take the edge farther away from the hand and add to the problem. Which is why my favourite knife for precision work is a guardless, choilless puukko with a cutting edge that runs all the way to the handle. To a small knife, the choil adds nothing, except a visual detail and a very small aid in sharpening. To a large knife, it will actually be of benefit (since by choking up on the choil the blade heavy balance of such a knife is somewhat alleviated, making small tasks less fatiguing).
Elen,
You have actually helped me see the light. Here is some of what I was thinking (which may be somewhat flawed) -
The choil allows you to choke up on the blade giving you the extra control when you need it, and if the front edge of the grip is properly profiled, the grip can be comfortable enough to not harm the ergonomics significantly. You still have a 4" blade for batoning and other tasks which may require a larger knife.
You have actually helped me see the light. Here is some of what I was thinking (which may be somewhat flawed) -
The choil allows you to choke up on the blade giving you the extra control when you need it, and if the front edge of the grip is properly profiled, the grip can be comfortable enough to not harm the ergonomics significantly. You still have a 4" blade for batoning and other tasks which may require a larger knife.
I'm happy if I've been of some use. That doesn't happen often!
Yes, I think there is a flaw in that logic: if one puts a choil on a 4" blade, then you get either a 4" blade with less than 4" of cutting edge (since the choil takes up some of the space) or you get a 4" cutting edge on a blade that is longer than 4" (since the choil has to go somewhere, and if you don't use the cutting edge for the choil, then you need to add blade length). In any case, only the cutting edge can be used for batoning effectively, so the choil can't add anything useful (except what little aid it can give to sharpening). As for the ergonomics, even with a very carefully designed handle portion, fact remains that holding onto a properly made handle is always more comfortable than holding partly on bare metal and partly on a handle. That is especially true in cold weather, where said bare metal will turn cold and thus unpleasant to touch. If one wanted a larger knife for tasks such as chopping or batoning, instead of adding a choil to a 4" blade the most efficient way would be to just add cutting edge. :thumbup:
To Rotte: I typically use a small knife in combination w/ a saw or chopping tool when necessary. 3 1/2" is about the max blade length I care for. Beyond that I have very little control over the tip. That size lets me baton wood for a fire, as well as whittle shavings, prepare food, etc.
About the choil. I thought the one on the RC-3 was well done. It made the knife sit very nicely in the hand for precision tasks. I thought the knife was nicer to use gripping the choil than the handle. It is a compromise, but a knife always is. Belly vs. point vs. blade width vs. thickness vs. weight vs. overall length...etc. FWIW, I don't see the point of the choil on a long blade, as it is not much good as a precision tool regardless. It might be good on certain 3-4" blades.
About the choil. I thought the one on the RC-3 was well done. It made the knife sit very nicely in the hand for precision tasks. I thought the knife was nicer to use gripping the choil than the handle. It is a compromise, but a knife always is. Belly vs. point vs. blade width vs. thickness vs. weight vs. overall length...etc. FWIW, I don't see the point of the choil on a long blade, as it is not much good as a precision tool regardless. It might be good on certain 3-4" blades.
When a choil is nicer to grip than the handle of the knife, it obviously means only one thing: you've got a knife with a horrifyingly bad handle design. The choil part is on the blade of the knife, that is to say on bare metal. The handle is supposed to have some kind of 'softer', thicker most often contoured material to make gripping it far more comfortable than gripping bare metal. It is very easy to design a handle that is much more comfortable to hold than bare metal choils. Of course, one can still fail disastrously in handle design, but that really doesn't make the choil universally more comfortable to grip.
As for long blades, the usefulness of the choil is greater on long blades just because they are so long, and because of that have a lot of forward weight. Gripping the handle of such a blade, doing any smaller work is tiresome because the forward weight is trying to drag the blade down all the time. Small knives do not have this problem because they are not so blade heavy, rather they are handle heavy. But with a choil on a long knife, you can move your grip closer to the balance point of the blade, and that makes using it less tiresome in small tasks, since the weight isn't so far from your grip now. It's really very simple, and about physics and basic ergonomics. A choil doesn't make a long knife a good precision cutter, but it does make it better than it would be without the choil, at some cost in ergonomics, though.
myright
Gold Member
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I really enjoy my small knives on day trips. Most of the time it's my Graham Spearpoint or my SDS skinner. Funny part is I don't use the skinner to skin Both are great, smaller knives that perform much larger than they are.
They both fit my needs for what I do during a day trip or short hike.
I haven't taken any outdoor pics of this one yet.
Both are great, smaller knives that perform much larger than they are. They both fit my needs for what I do during a day trip or short hike.
I haven't taken any outdoor pics of this one yet.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
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- 2,304
I have to agree as well. I think my Gossman PSK has more time on it then all my other knives combined at this point. Love the blade. I use to carry a Gerber BMF all the time, then a Ranger RD-9, but these days it tends toward the PSK and a RC-3 or Gossman PSKsr/WTK.
Can't go wrong with a decent PSK.
Can't go wrong with a decent PSK.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2007
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- 9,786
I like the little knives but I use them for the most part for urban carry. I like a little fixed blade that rides easily in my front pocket and doesn't print. This becomes a bit of a specialized knife though. You don't want the overall length too long otherwise it sticks of our your pocket. About 6.5" overall is the maximum that works with this style. Here is my KJ Kit knife which right now sees EDC duty daily:
Now some people don't like the smaller handles that come with these little blades. Even I feel like the small handle is a compromise to knife performance, but one that I'm willing to make for the mode of carry. A well executed knife does have a comfortable handle though, even when they are small in length. The JK is quite good to work with, but if I were to do prolonged carving, I would reach for a larger handled knife - like this one.
Here's a couple of other smaller EDC's I like to carry. This Wade necker now rides in my fire/shelter PSK.
The top one is my wife's purse knife
For me personally, these little knives (blades 1.5" - < 3") are best optimized for storage and convenient carry methods. They are the kinds of blades that you have in your pants pocket or maybe a zippered pocket in your jacket and you kind of forget that it is there. They work very well at sparking firesteels, doing the odd cutting chore and a little bit of carving.
If I'm in the woods then I prefer a belt knife and will go to a 3"-5" blade with a more beefy handle that allows prolonged use of the knife. Or I might pair the 3" knife with a bigger one/axe as others have stated for the combination.
Again its only my opinion, but a lot of the talk about choils seems to focus on the academics of the debate. I have knives with choils in all sizes and knives without choils in the same sizes. Whether the knife has a choil or not tends to have little bearing on whether I grab for it and use. As others said, sometimes the choil provides additional grip options and I don't think that this necessarily means that the handle is not comfortable. I certainly wouldn't want a choil on a tiny pocket carry knife because the need to conserve compactness is paramount to its carry functionality.
Now some people don't like the smaller handles that come with these little blades. Even I feel like the small handle is a compromise to knife performance, but one that I'm willing to make for the mode of carry. A well executed knife does have a comfortable handle though, even when they are small in length. The JK is quite good to work with, but if I were to do prolonged carving, I would reach for a larger handled knife - like this one.
Here's a couple of other smaller EDC's I like to carry. This Wade necker now rides in my fire/shelter PSK.
The top one is my wife's purse knife
For me personally, these little knives (blades 1.5" - < 3") are best optimized for storage and convenient carry methods. They are the kinds of blades that you have in your pants pocket or maybe a zippered pocket in your jacket and you kind of forget that it is there. They work very well at sparking firesteels, doing the odd cutting chore and a little bit of carving.
If I'm in the woods then I prefer a belt knife and will go to a 3"-5" blade with a more beefy handle that allows prolonged use of the knife. Or I might pair the 3" knife with a bigger one/axe as others have stated for the combination.
Again its only my opinion, but a lot of the talk about choils seems to focus on the academics of the debate. I have knives with choils in all sizes and knives without choils in the same sizes. Whether the knife has a choil or not tends to have little bearing on whether I grab for it and use. As others said, sometimes the choil provides additional grip options and I don't think that this necessarily means that the handle is not comfortable. I certainly wouldn't want a choil on a tiny pocket carry knife because the need to conserve compactness is paramount to its carry functionality.
Always good to have other opinions. :thumbup: I have always suspected most people don't care either way whether a knife has a choil or doesn't - just as most people don't care whether a knife is made out of poorly heat treated 440A or Dozier's D2. But then, I've also always thought most people don't really use their knives all that much... Personally, I think the choil debate is absolutely the opposite of academics or theory - it's about performance in practice. People who do not use their knives very much for precise work will be unlikely to notice large differences between knives that have a choil and knives that do not. People who do use their knives for precise work extensively, though, will almost certainly notice, and prefer choilless knives because they are simple better for such work. By the way - some very nice knives in your pics. :thumbup:
Elen, I must say that this discussion about choils could be easily ended when you realize YOU'RE WRONG! Sorry, had to say that. I think that precision work can be on the tip or on the back of the edge. Where you did your work would dictate whether the choil was useful to you.
As far as poor handle design on the RC-3, I am guessing you have never played with one, due to your strong groundless assertions. The handle offers one type of grip, and the choil handle combination offers another. Both are good, both are a compromise to some extent.
While I agree with many of the things you speak of here, I find it rather pointless to dispute everyone's opinions by regarding your own as fact. Insulting KGD is not a way to bolster your argument, it simply makes you look bad.
Please understand I do not care if you or anyone else does anything I do or do not. If you have something useful to add, please do so. However, please do not continue to try to tear down those who are trying to add something.
Sorry, had to say that. I think that precision work can be on the tip or on the back of the edge. Where you did your work would dictate whether the choil was useful to you. As far as poor handle design on the RC-3, I am guessing you have never played with one, due to your strong groundless assertions. The handle offers one type of grip, and the choil handle combination offers another. Both are good, both are a compromise to some extent.
While I agree with many of the things you speak of here, I find it rather pointless to dispute everyone's opinions by regarding your own as fact. Insulting KGD is not a way to bolster your argument, it simply makes you look bad.
Please understand I do not care if you or anyone else does anything I do or do not. If you have something useful to add, please do so. However, please do not continue to try to tear down those who are trying to add something.
Any cal beat me to it, I dont care much for someone totally disregarding someone else point, which is what you are doing like it or not.
A coil can be handy, I personally don't like them. I would rather just have no guard on a knife, and have the ability to get my fingers as close to that edge as possible, that is where control comes in.
Though when I look at a knife like the RC6 which has a very generous coil is handy, it can do over sized work ok, plus I can choke up on the edge, I wouldn't hold the knife by the coil while doing larger amounts of work, thats not what its there for obviously.
And yes I like little knives
Elen, I must say that this discussion about choils could be easily ended when you realize YOU'RE WRONG!
As far as poor handle design on the RC-3, I am guessing you have never played with one, due to your strong groundless assertions. The handle offers one type of grip, and the choil handle combination offers another. Both are good, both are a compromise to some extent.
While I agree with many of the things you speak of here, I find it rather pointless to dispute everyone's opinions by regarding your own as fact. Insulting KGD is not a way to bolster your argument, it simply makes you look bad.
Please understand I do not care if you or anyone else does anything I do or do not. If you have something useful to add, please do so. However, please do not continue to try to tear down those who are trying to add something.
I'm certainly not trying to insult anyone or regard my own opinions as fact. And I have not been trying to offend anyone, either, and if I have, I sincerely apologize. As for disregarding anyone's point, I haven't tried to do that, either, but then, to err is human.
However, the effect of a choil on a knife is not opinion, it's physics and ergonomics, and it's fact. You can do precision work on any part of a blade, but it is a fact that you can apply the most force and the most precision at the spot where the cutting edge meets the handle of the knife. That is due to simple physics, and is easy to confirm. On the other hand, you can certainly move your grip away from the handle, onto a choil, or you can even grip a wide blade by its spine and sides to use the tip. That, in turn, is not as ergonomically comfortable as holding the knife by the handle, due to obvious reasons.
For those among us that find that a choil gives some tangible benefit over a design that does not have a choil, I would very much like to hear what that benefit is. Ergonomically and in terms of physics as it applies to cutting power and precision. If one cannot explain where such a benefit comes from, one might wish to consider whether the benefit is real or imagined, or simply a matter of how one is used to doing things. Most often one hears statements like "it lets you choke up on the blade" and "it's really convenient and handy" in support of choils. Am I wrong if I say that such statements do not really explain and display what the real advantage, factually, instead of as a matter of taste, is?
I own an RC-3, and have used it, so I do not find my assertions groundless. I haven't claimed that its handle is poor, though. I made a general statement that when a choil is "nicer" (I interpret that as "more comfortable") to grip than the handle, then the handle design must be poor. I personally don't like the way the RC-3 is designed, and I don't like the choil. But it is a well made knife nonetheless and I can see why people like it. The materials and worksmanship are good. The choil, while I do not think it serves any purpose on such a small knife, is done well. I find holding the knife by the handle much more comfortable, though, especially in the cold.
I also haven't been trying to tear anyone down. I can see how my tone might appear and be considered annoyingly preaching, though, and for that I apologize. I try to live by the idea that issues argue, and not people, so if I criticize an idea or a design concept, I never mean it as a personal insult to anyone. I myself have no problem with people stating that they hate knives that do not have a choil or that they hate Scandi knives. I do not find it insulting, and I perhaps foolishly thought that nobody would be insulted if I tried (poorly, as my English for these words isn't as good as I wish it was) to explain what downsides a choil on a small knife has.
I have used knives for precision work a lot in my life, and everyone else that I know who has done the same has noticed that a choil and a fingerguard interfere and hinder such work instead of helping it. They do not make such work impossible at all, but they do make it less efficient and comfortable. Now, I know for a fact that many people have little experience in using knives that do not have choils for extensive precise work, so for those people my preachings may hopefully have a little value. Perhaps there are a few folks also in this forum that haven't done much woodwork with their knives, even though we're knife nuts all and one.
But I'm starting to digress here. I have honestly had no intention to offend anyone and if I have done so I sincerely apologize. So, this is my apology and an attempt at explaining my reasons for preaching about not having choils on small knives for precise work. Thank you for the feedback, guys. It's good that someone is keeping me in check, because I have a tendency to just write and write and write. I have always had that problem. Now, I'll give myself a :thumbdn: and I will also shut up, because it seems the choir doesn't like my preaching very much, and rightly so.
:foot:
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I didn't take any offence by Elen, but we can certainly debate what constitutes precision work or not. Any Cal. raises a valid point as to whether the work is being done at the tip or towards that back edge of the blade. Work done with back part of the edge will likely suffer from a choil. As Fonly points out, precision work done with the tip can benefit from a choil, particularly so, on a longer blade. Then again, if you just don't like choils, then you probably will not use them and conclude that they are of no value....
Back to OP. Here is a $20 (or used to be) nice little knife - the buck diamondback guide, rubber handle remove and paracord wrapped. Now I know my fair southern brothers have come across this little blade for $10. At Walley-mart the other day I noticed the price was increased to $29.95....at the high price point it is starting wain in the value (go for the becker necker)....Still a fine little cutter.
Back to OP. Here is a $20 (or used to be) nice little knife - the buck diamondback guide, rubber handle remove and paracord wrapped. Now I know my fair southern brothers have come across this little blade for $10. At Walley-mart the other day I noticed the price was increased to $29.95....at the high price point it is starting wain in the value (go for the becker necker)....Still a fine little cutter.
mtnfolk mike
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2006
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- 10,040
I like small fixed blades also. I just finished my first knife and its a lil guy. have a look.
great looking little knife pancho....:thumbup: i like it...