Let Freedom ring!

I have read about a guy in NZ who ordered a whole crate of FALs dirt cheap, straight from Imbel. If you're right, I'm going to have to send some emails and buy some tax stamps...

I wonder if FMAP is tooled up for type one receivers?

I would like to turn my PS90 in to a P90...

I really like those silenced Buckmarks...
 
Now I'll make a prediction. I can see no plausible argum,ent why the right to keep and bear arms for self defense as stated by Scalia would not be inforporated by the 14th Amendment, so Chicago's handgun ban will be overturned. Local AWBs should be overturned if the court ultimately opts for strict scrutiny and might get overturned otherwise, but restrictions on Class III stuff won't. And that goes for Ronald Reagan's '86 machine gun ban too.

It may not be the way things ought to be, but that's the way it is.

You would be wrong. Mark my words, you read them here. The federal government has never banned class 3 firearms, they have however restricted them. Restrictions will fly, but an artificial cap on the number allowed to be possessed will not fly. It would be akin to saying you have freedom of religion, but we won't allow any more churches, you can only pray in the churches that exist, you can only pray between these hours and we will only allow so many people to enter the church at a time. By its essence those very restrictions would constitute a ban, and thus would be struck down.

That is no different than you can own a machine gun, but only in these states, only if you can get your CLEO to sign off on it, and only if it is one of a finite number available legally. Sorry, not going to happen. Throw in the fact that the 86 ban was a hostile amendment added to the FOPA during a late night session and "passed" by a voice vote when there were actually not enough votes to pass it. It will get shot down. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but I just got off an hour long conference call with several 2nd amendment attorneys and that is their take on it as well as mine. I've spoken with probably a dozen attorneys today that are 2nd amendment specialists and they think the NFA will stand in part, but much of it will be shot down. The parts that will stand will be a registration, prohibition against criminals and other disqualified parties and fees... the rest will be history. This decision does not deliver this, but it is the precedent to force incorporation and then attack state bans and ultimately the 86 ban.

In any event, it is nice to have a discussion with somebody who has read the opinion and analyzed it, even if we disagree Sir. :thumbup:
 
JohntheTexican and Hiramranger...

Thanks for the discussion! :thumbup: It is very insightful, and even more entertaining than the ol' my knife is better than your knife, or the infamous knives are not meant to be an axe/crowbar banter. ;)

One thing is for sure... our rights have been preserved.

Food for thought.... :confused:

What if they attempted to limit the first amendment as much as they try to limit the second one? Might the media respond differently? :confused: ;)

"FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS..." Mr. Charlton Heston

2GlocksFFBM.jpg


Again guys... fantastic insight and opinions on this subject! Thanks for the input. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Here's the link to the NRA page on it. And here's a quote from John McCain's site:

Today's decision is a landmark victory for Second Amendment freedom in the United States. For this first time in the history of our Republic, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed that the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms was and is an individual right as intended by our Founding Fathers. I applaud this decision as well as the overturning of the District of Columbia's ban on handguns and limitations on the ability to use firearms for self-defense.

Unlike Senator Obama, who refused to join me in signing a bipartisan amicus brief, I was pleased to express my support and call for the ruling issued today. Today's ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller makes clear that other municipalities like Chicago that have banned handguns have infringed on the constitutional rights of Americans. Unlike the elitist view that believes Americans cling to guns out of bitterness, today's ruling recognizes that gun ownership is an important right- sacred, just as the right to free speech and assembly.

This ruling does not mark the end of our struggle against those who seek to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. We must always remain vigilant in defense of our freedoms. But today, the Supreme Court ended forever the specious argument that the Second Amendment did not confer an individual right to keep and bear arms.

McCain's site

Manu Forti
NRA Life
 
JohntheTexican and Hiramranger...


What if they attempted to limit the first amendment as much as they try to limit the second one? Might the media respond differently? :confused: ;)

Again guys... fantastic insight and opinions on this subject! Thanks for the input. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Great question: http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/

I'm not sure it's a perfect analogy (okay, it's far from perfect) but the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case is a very popular one to talk about right now regarding a limitation of first amendment rights.

Agreed with the second point, too :)
 
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You would be wrong. Mark my words, you read them here. The federal government has never banned class 3 firearms, they have however restricted them. Restrictions will fly, but an artificial cap on the number allowed to be possessed will not fly. It would be akin to saying you have freedom of religion, but we won't allow any more churches, you can only pray in the churches that exist, you can only pray between these hours and we will only allow so many people to enter the church at a time. By its essence those very restrictions would constitute a ban, and thus would be struck down.

That is no different than you can own a machine gun, but only in these states, only if you can get your CLEO to sign off on it, and only if it is one of a finite number available legally. Sorry, not going to happen. Throw in the fact that the 86 ban was a hostile amendment added to the FOPA during a late night session and "passed" by a voice vote when there were actually not enough votes to pass it. It will get shot down. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but I just got off an hour long conference call with several 2nd amendment attorneys and that is their take on it as well as mine. I've spoken with probably a dozen attorneys today that are 2nd amendment specialists and they think the NFA will stand in part, but much of it will be shot down. The parts that will stand will be a registration, prohibition against criminals and other disqualified parties and fees... the rest will be history. This decision does not deliver this, but it is the precedent to force incorporation and then attack state bans and ultimately the 86 ban.

In any event, it is nice to have a discussion with somebody who has read the opinion and analyzed it, even if we disagree Sir. :thumbup:


I think if you reread the opinion, you'll see that Scalia made it pretty clear that we're not going to be seeing cheap happy-switches any time soon. Machineguns are scary, unusual guns that nice people don't own, which would take them out of the class of weapons that the opinion says the Second Amendment protects.

It's sort of a catch-22. Since the 1934 NFA made it such a pain in the neck to get a machinegun and the '86 ban new guns for the civilian market drove the prices through the roof, machineguns have never had the opportunity to become the home defense weapon of choice for most Americans, which means they're not a type of firearm ordinarily owned by We The People, which means they don't qualify for Constitutional protection, which means they'll never be available in quantities to become a type of firearm ordinarily owned by We The People, which means they won't get Constitutional protection, no matter how much so many of us might want them.

I think a more interesting question is whether this will have any effect on the 1968 GCA ban on the importation of non-sporting firearms. If the Second Amendment is to a large extent about self defense, as the Court said it is, then banning the importation of firearms well suited to personal or home defense because they're supposedly not sporting would seem to fly in the face of the Second Amendment. I look forward to the day when every American can get a Benelli M4 Super 90 with all the good features without having to worry about all that 922(r) nonsense.

And by the way, I've never met an attorney who was a Second Amendment specialist, and I have a hard time believing that they even exist (much less dozens of them in one place), given the fact that the sum total of two hundred plus years of Second Amendment jurisprudence would fit in a single volume, and not a particularly thick one, as law books go. In fact, I'm about the closest thing to an attorney who's a Second Amendment specialist that I've ever met (Nino didn't cite a single Second Amendment case--state or federal--that I hadn't read at least a couple times), and I've never even had a case where the Second Amendment was an issue.

But I do agree that it's been an entertaining discussion, and I hope we've provided some useful information for others who have stopped by to read what we wrote.:thumbup:
 
It is GREAT news!

But look at the early to mid 90's, if a certain party takes majority control I'm afraid we could see those day's again.

But for now...WhoooHoooo!!!




ps- and please support the NRA


No worries my hoggish brother, she won't :thumbup: :D
 
this was a biggie!
let's all go out back and empty a few mags to celebrate!

WOOHOOOOOO!!! I'm with ya Bro! :D

Time to blast off a couple of mags and knock down a few beers/scotch/whiskey/vodka...etc... in celebration!

Oh.. and by the way... If I ever get in trouble (er...again) in East Texas I am calling JohntheTexican! :thumbup:
 
I for one want a PDW, personal defense weapon, like a P90.

That's a 20" OAL select fire weapon with a 50 round magazine firing armor piercing ammo.

Defense is it's middle name.

Machine guns are only scary guns that nice people don't own because it's tough to get them.

AR-15's are very popular, do you think they would become unpopular if they were only available as a select fire model? I've seen people spend more than $200 on a flashlight for an AR-15, they will pay the $200 for a switch that makes it go bang real fast.

You should just look at all of the people who buy AK's specifically so that they can bump fire them. That's very dangerous.

I like FALs which are chambered in .308. They are very, very hard to control in full auto, but does that mean that my semi-auto versions should not be able to have a safety sear that prevents out of battery firing? It's a safety issue but my state won't let me do it even if I wanted to pay the $200 tax.
 
I think if you reread the opinion, you'll see that Scalia made it pretty clear that we're not going to be seeing cheap happy-switches any time soon. Machineguns are scary, unusual guns that nice people don't own, which would take them out of the class of weapons that the opinion says the Second Amendment protects.

It's sort of a catch-22. Since the 1934 NFA made it such a pain in the neck to get a machinegun and the '86 ban new guns for the civilian market drove the prices through the roof, machineguns have never had the opportunity to become the home defense weapon of choice for most Americans, which means they're not a type of firearm ordinarily owned by We The People, which means they don't qualify for Constitutional protection, which means they'll never be available in quantities to become a type of firearm ordinarily owned by We The People, which means they won't get Constitutional protection, no matter how much so many of us might want them.

I think a more interesting question is whether this will have any effect on the 1968 GCA ban on the importation of non-sporting firearms. If the Second Amendment is to a large extent about self defense, as the Court said it is, then banning the importation of firearms well suited to personal or home defense because they're supposedly not sporting would seem to fly in the face of the Second Amendment. I look forward to the day when every American can get a Benelli M4 Super 90 with all the good features without having to worry about all that 922(r) nonsense.

And by the way, I've never met an attorney who was a Second Amendment specialist, and I have a hard time believing that they even exist (much less dozens of them in one place), given the fact that the sum total of two hundred plus years of Second Amendment jurisprudence would fit in a single volume, and not a particularly thick one, as law books go. In fact, I'm about the closest thing to an attorney who's a Second Amendment specialist that I've ever met (Nino didn't cite a single Second Amendment case--state or federal--that I hadn't read at least a couple times), and I've never even had a case where the Second Amendment was an issue.

But I do agree that it's been an entertaining discussion, and I hope we've provided some useful information for others who have stopped by to read what we wrote.:thumbup:

There are certainly 2nd amendment specialists. They work for organizations like the NRA, GOA, state affiliates of the NRA, local lobbying groups like SCOPE. Uncommon yes, but they are out there, and I did not say they were in one place... I said I spoke to them. The phone and email are wonderful things. My cell phone bill for the month is shot because I get around 3 hours of peak usage time and was on it for around 6 hours today alone. If you are curious, I work in politics and most of my friends are lobbyists and attorneys that deal in regulatory compliance and the like, that is how I come into contact with so many of these guys.

This decision went to lengths to say it did not overturn Miller. Miller defined in common use as that in use by the military. While they may or may not be the same thing, an argument could be made that since Heller was not overturned and specifically maintained, that militia arms are those in common use by the standing army... which would include M16s.

The bottom line is when machine guns were invented they were available by mail order and for a pittance. The only thing which kept them from being more wide spread was the initially the $200 tax stamp - enough to buy a car back then. Today the $200 is irrelevant, the artificial inflation which turned a $2 auto sear into a $10,000 registered NFA item is what keeps them from being commonly used now. Cost alone would not be the problem, you don't have a right to be able to AFFORD an M16. However, since they are legal, you have the right to be able to buy one if you meet the stated legal criteria. Problem is they have restricted how many exist, effectively denying you of your right. Furthermore, the CLEO sign off is really no different than DC refusing to issue permits and register pistols. There is however an end run in that you can incorporate or form a trust to end run the CLEO approval. This is of course moot if the market is prevented from meeting your demand. Saying that you can own one, if you can find one, while making it increasingly harder to obtain one is a de facto ban.

Like I said, I don't see the 34 ban going away. I don't see tax stamps going away. I see the 86 ban on current manufacture going bye bye, I see CLEO approval going bye bye, and I see state bans going bye bye via incorporation.
 
Hey HiramRanger...

I hope you are right! But I fear that the politicians will continue to push for gun control. They will not give up this easily. (unfortunately)

Anyway... thanks again for your professional breakdown of the decision... (and JohntheTexican's opinion as well) Keep it up! You guys are a hell of a lot more informative than the AP!)
 
Hey HiramRanger...

I hope you are right! But I fear that the politicians will continue to push for gun control. They will not give up this easily. (unfortunately)

Anyway... thanks again for your professional breakdown of the decision... (and JohntheTexican's opinion as well) Keep it up! You guys are a hell of a lot more informative than the AP!)

Brother, I live in NY... I don't expect the scumbags to ever stop in trying to circumvent our rights. I just know from interacting with these guys, who rarely have a positive thing to say, that they are VERY excited and encouraged by this decision. It is not the panacea, but man is it the foundation to build on. As I told one of them, today was D-Day for gun rights advocates. We breached the defenses, now we are driving through the breach and targeting the enemy in their strongholds - local level. The war is not won... not close. But today a pivotal battle was.
 
There are certainly 2nd amendment specialists. They work for organizations like the NRA, GOA, state affiliates of the NRA, local lobbying groups like SCOPE. Uncommon yes, but they are out there, and I did not say they were in one place... I said I spoke to them. The phone and email are wonderful things. My cell phone bill for the month is shot because I get around 3 hours of peak usage time and was on it for around 6 hours today alone. If you are curious, I work in politics and most of my friends are lobbyists and attorneys that deal in regulatory compliance and the like, that is how I come into contact with so many of these guys.

As long as you're not going to pretend the folks at the ATF are Second amendment specialists, I'll let it slide. But seriously, does the NRA have lawyers who actually specialize in the Second Amendment? I thought everyone over there specialized in fiundraising.

This decision went to lengths to say it did not overturn Miller. Miller defined in common use as that in use by the military. While they may or may not be the same thing, an argument could be made that since Heller was not overturned and specifically maintained, that militia arms are those in common use by the standing army... which would include M16s.

I think you're misreading the opinion. What Scalia was actually saying is that Miller does not mean that the Second Amendment protect arms based on their common use by the military; it only protects those commonly owned by civilians for lawful purposes. What he said specifically was that "We... read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns." Op. at 53 (emphasis added).

Scalia assumes that the NFA was fine and dandy, and that machineguns are not covered: "Read in isolation, Miller’s phrase 'part of ordinary military equipment' could mean that only those weapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns (not challenged in Miller) might be unconstitutional, machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939."

Scalia didn't so much go to lengths to say that Miller was not overturned as to say that Miller would not be an impediment to banning the stuff regulated under the NFA.

The bottom line is when machine guns were invented they were available by mail order and for a pittance. The only thing which kept them from being more wide spread was the initially the $200 tax stamp - enough to buy a car back then. Today the $200 is irrelevant, the artificial inflation which turned a $2 auto sear into a $10,000 registered NFA item is what keeps them from being commonly used now. Cost alone would not be the problem, you don't have a right to be able to AFFORD an M16. However, since they are legal, you have the right to be able to buy one if you meet the stated legal criteria. Problem is they have restricted how many exist, effectively denying you of your right. Furthermore, the CLEO sign off is really no different than DC refusing to issue permits and register pistols. There is however an end run in that you can incorporate or form a trust to end run the CLEO approval. This is of course moot if the market is prevented from meeting your demand. Saying that you can own one, if you can find one, while making it increasingly harder to obtain one is a de facto ban.

I think the bottom line is that the Court made a point of saying that its decision wasn't going to upset the applecart of federal regulations, and specifically that the feds could ban machineguns.

I suspect that this was in response to the amicus brief filed by our "friends" in the Bush administration arguing that although the Second Amendment confers an individual right, it should not be read as interfering with the govenment's power to abridge that right whenever it sees fit, with machineguns being the primary example cited in the brief. (To quote one of the headings in the Bush administration's amicus brief: "Congress Has Authority To Prohibit Particular Types Of Firearms, Such As Machineguns.")

But the real bottom line is that the feds have for all practical purposes banned ordinary people from owing machineguns for almost 75 years, and no one except a few of us more extreme gun nuts have complained. The courts are going to have no problem at all in saying that machineguns are "dangerous and unusual weapons" that are not of the type “in common use at the time,” and are therefor not entitled to Constitutional protection.

Like I said, I don't see the 34 ban going away. I don't see tax stamps going away. I see the 86 ban on current manufacture going bye bye, I see CLEO approval going bye bye, and I see state bans going bye bye via incorporation.

I'd love to see the 86 ban go away too, but it jut ain't happening.
 
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I think the current owners of machine guns are praying they 86 ban does not go away... and I dare say some would oppose it going away due to the sheer amount of money they have tied up in said toys and how much they stand to lose. The fact is Congress chose to regulate possession, something in their purview for sure. Most of the original NFA regulations are not today onerous. It could be argued that a $200 tax stamp in the 1930s was indeed onerous, but it is insignificant today. The CLEO sign off is arbitrary by nature, but as mentioned, there are legal end runs around this. If Congress feels that NFA weapons are particularly dangerous it has the option of completely banning their possession. They however have stated by past action, and current inaction, on the issue that possession is fine within stipulated guidelines. All of that is constitutionally acceptable. What is not is the artificial limitation of weapons to the populace which has the effect of denying the ability to possess one. It can not be argued that an automatic weapon is not suited for militia service as it is IDEAL and PREFERRED for militia service as evidenced by the firearms our nation issues to our military. It can be argued, albeit poorly, that they are uncommon... but that is only due to government interference - I believe that twit Ginsburg even grasped that during oral arguments.

It will be interesting to see the government defend its regulation under the 86 ban as it amounts to a ban for a large portion of the populace by restricting supply. They will need to show why it is fine for current NFA weapons to be possessed but additional weapons need to be curtailed. I don't see that standing up to intermediate scrutiny. The remedy of course would be to ban ALL machine guns, but once again, they will need to show why. If they wish to argue they are particularly dangerous they will need to demonstrate that. How many crimes have been committed with NFA registered weapons by the way?

Remember, during oral arguments the justices asked how is a complete ban a reasonable restriction? In truth DC did not have a complete ban on handguns. If you had one before the ban went into effect you could keep it, but under onerous conditions. If you wanted to obtain a new handgun, you could not legally. Boy, that sounds like there are some parallels. There is an outright ban of post 86 NFA weapons, and if you had an NFA weapon manufactured in say 1940 (gramps had an unregistered Tommy Gun in the attic) you could not register it any longer.

No, this case does not answer these issues... they weren't the issues before the court. Scalia however was pretty clear that the 2nd protects an individual's right to have firearms for self-defense and for militia purposes in defense of the nation or God forbid against it. To say that right is limited to commonly held firearms is to say that in a couple generations the 2nd amendment will be toothless since developments in technology will render the projectile firearms we have today ineffective. And if government can ban any weapon not in common use, they can prevent us from acquiring new technology by never allowing us to ever own it period, thus arguing its not in common use and not protected. This would be completely self-defeating and totally at odds with the purpose of this ruling which is to affirm that the 2nd amendment has meaning today just as it did 230 plus years ago.

Now if you'll forgive me, its been a long night, and I apologize if this last post has been anything short of eloquent... for I fear it has failed in that regard terribly.
 
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