Let's be fair.....

Pierre,

It is those very things that you say that disturb me.

I don't have a problem with naturalized Americans. My partner on the job is a Naturalized American. Three of four of my grandparents were naturalized Americans. Many of my friends are naturalized.

I have news for you. An American of the Jewish faith is not the same as being an Israeli. You are obviously equating the two for some reason of your own. You say that you are an American by choice, but a Jew who stays in America, his own homeland, is, what, a coward? (This is why I suggested that perhaps we should use the same logic to invite you to leave. It was an illustration.)

A Jew should no more emigrate to Israel than a Catholic to the Vatican, a Buddhist to Asia, and so on.

What I don't understand is the basis for you, a naturalized American, who allegedly served under the same Constitution I have sworn to uphold, to point to others and state that they should go live elsewhere. Why? Because they are Jews? So, somehow they are less American than other Americans? Don't belong here? Haven't shed the same blood in battle?

I could care less if you like Sharon or Arafat. I could care less if you support Israel or Palestine.

It's the underlying statements that you made that bother me.

American by choice? Those sentiments don't sound American to me. They sound more like the Vichy government to me.
 
Munk,

Point well taken. I will use this posting to clarify my views.

No, I do not expect this forum to conform to MY expectations. Yes, I do expect to read about Knives when I log-in because this is what it is suposed to be about... If you go to an Italian restaurant, do you expect Mexican food?? And if someone puts garbage in you plate,would you not at least question it?

You are right! I am very sensitive to any position promoting violence, war and destruction...and yes I will confess great intolerance for warmongers who rally to start more trouble.

In the old Roman Empire, retired centurions used to hang their sword out to rust to show their disdain for killing. Those were seasoned warriors from Cesar's campaigns, not faint of heart.

I fell the same. I am not perfect and I am still learning to tolerate intolerance.

Thank for your views who allowed me to see that there is a third way to look at this all thing!
 
Thanks Pierre. It embarresses me to tell people the truth. It's hard to do. When Blues spoke of demogogues (sic) that could be me too. I wish it were otherwise, I wish I didn't have to tie my shoes in the morning.

I liked Bill Marsh's thread and his last post. Stick around...more will be revealed.

munk
 
yes I will confess great intolerance for warmongers who rally to start more trouble.
Click to expand...

What would you call a rallier who motivates people to stop someone from staring more trouble? I am more concerned by the pacifist path. The US neutrality led to WWII, and possibly even WWI. Just as it was our statement of neutrality that encourage Saddam to invade Kuwait. It is not about starting trouble, it is about finishing it before it spreads.

As for sending people back to their homeland, I have only one suggestion: I am going to start brown nosing YVSA, because, by the time they send us all back to where ever we came from, he is going to end up owning most of the Eastern half of the country; and I might need the patronage.

n2s
 
>> It is apparently a sin in this politically correct climate to state an opinion against Jewish interests. The traditioanl answer is to quickly label me anti-semite. Well, sorry, I do not care anymore for the Palestinain either. <<


The term anti-semite is used to say 'against jews' but it refers to all the decendants of Shem, including the Arabs. My reason for posting this isn't to pick at words, but rather to understand. When you say Jewish intrests it sounds an aweful lot like racism. Do you mean the political intrests of some jews, probably zionists?

I feel the same way you do, Pierre, about Sharon and Arafat.. I don't trust either of them. The IDF is said to oppress palestinians and the palestinians are said to support terrorism. Who is right? The US doesn't blindly support Israel, we take a pretty moderate stance.. we simply recognize Israel's sovreignty (which was granted by the UN). Right and wrong doesn't factor into that. That doesn't begin to touch the issues between the two groups, but it settles the matter for me. I trust our leaders (especially Colin Powell) to make wise decisions. We've come a long way from Korea and Vietnam.

In short, I do support American invovlment in the middle east-- and around the world-- and I would put on a uniform to back it up.
 
Hey Munk, I wrote "demagogues" so (sic) doesn't apply. ;)
 
Damn those demogagues anyway. Liked your posts, Blues. I sure hope most federal officers (or whatever your capacity) are more like yourself than the worst I've read about the FBI or BATF. But then, reason is as welcome as a drink of water in the desert, and as rare as an honest man.... and a bromide is least liked in the form of run on sentences...


munk, babbling
 
I have been absent from this forum for quite a while but I occasionally do monitor the posts. Pierre, if the credentials that you present are accurate, thank you for your service. Irrespective of that, I feel compelled to offer my observations.

Your consistent reference to "Jews" leaves no doubt in my mind but that you are an anti-Semite. Call it a traditional response if you will but I have a well-developed keen sense of the obvious and, after reading all of your posts, none of your rhetoric will convince me otherwise. BTW, if anyone would like to question my credentials, please contact me via e-mail.

Bill, I realize that you fell very strongly about freedom of speech. While I do respect that, please keep in mind that this forum is a private discussion area and that you, as moderator, have the ability to control what is discussed here. IMO, Pierre is at the least a troll & at the worst a bigot. If it were my forum, I'd shut him down, now.
 
Brian,

You have the right to you opinion and I respect that but I would like just for the record to point out one thing: everyone seems to have a problem with the statement I made about the Jewish interests. On the other hand, few seem to remember the same statement I made about the Palestinians.

My all point is the fact that we are being draggued into a conflict that is no more our business than any other, this by politicians who are so lame that they will kiss anyone's behind to get his/her vote.

If according to you, it is our position to intervene every time there is injustice, where were we when in Cambodia 1/3 of the population was slaughtered. Why do we care so much about cuban refugiees and at the same time, send back any Haitian that ask for the same status? I can go on and on.

If you read the first posting, you will see that I was reacting to a view that is one-sided but as long as it is not against the people you support, I guess it is ok with you. On the other hand, shame on anyone who question the integrity of those wishing to drag us into their war. I see your point.

Should you ever want to read objectively every post again, you will find out that I do not believe in supporting anyone and for the record, should there ever be a Palestinian lobby as vocal as the jewish one here, asking for the same, I will have the same views against US Palestinians for wanting us to fight their own battle.

Finally as for my credentials, they are accurate and I will be more than happy to discuss them with you.

I am no more a troll than you are a bigot by trying to censure someone who does not happen to agree with you. Let's keep things in perspective: I have done my job (like many others)when needed. If the fact that I do not want to live in a world where people slaughter each other in the name of whatever futile argument makes me a pacifist in your eyes, fine with me. I do not believe in war. I wore a uniform for 15 years and saw the effects of conflicts first hand. I think this alone qualifies as credentials.
 
Pierre, despite your eloquence, I will not be drawn into a dialog. I have neither the time nor the interest. My conclusion is firm -- you are an anti-semite. Nothing you can say will change my opinion. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck....
 
If you have neither the time nor the interest to get into a dialog , then may be the next time you should refrain from personal attacks before running away.

Selective editing of what I posted, though convenient to sustain your argument, does not reflect my true position.

I chose to bring back balance to the forum considering what I have read for over 8 months. I am as prepared to be critical of Palestinians in this conflict and more than willing to expose here the devious policies implemented by Arafat, the slaughter of innocent Jewish civilians by cowards etc. Based on your postings, I doubt on the other hand that you would have the same integrity when it come to your views.

I have already stated several times where I stand regarding this and any other conflict. I stated earlier that I was open to any discussion as long as it stayed above the belt. This was not the case with you and a few others but from the various postings I have read, I was able to see that, at least, while my choice of words was poor at time [and I apologize for it], most people understood what I was trying to convey. I have learned as much from others as they might have learned from me, by the very fact we were able to exchange ideas and disagree courteously with each other.
 
In an unsolicited email I received from Pierre he refers to the Jewish question and later promotes isolationism.

The first part of the above raises the hair on the back of my neck. Is the discussion of the Final Solution next?

The second part strikes me as somehow disingenuous. The promotion of isolationism from someone who turned to this country "by choice" later in his life. Someone who came from a country which, without our non-isolationist help along with that of other allied nations, would never have been released from the bondage of its conquerors. (Somehow the famous "Resistance" was not enough to get the deed done on its own.)

And before anyone goes and labels me anti-French I'll go on record by saying that I have blood relatives in Paris and other parts of France as well as several good friends residing there.

I'm sorry to have come on this strongly (and apologize to the other members of the Cantina who have known me for some time) but, like Brian, I smell a rat, and clothing it and spraying perfume on it won't change what it is beneath it all.
 
Pierre, I agree with you in every word. Is nice to see that you became a warrior for the inteligence and the peace. I do believe that there are good feelings in America, against interventionism and against support to oppression in our wounded world.
 
Blues , since you too want to partake in personal attacks, I will do better than select editing. Below for all to see is the full and un-edited content of my email to you. One point where you are right: The word "question" was definitely a poor choice and I apologize for it but since you seem to master French better than I master English, I have no problem to carry on with this debate in my native language. As for all the other points I stated in my answer to you and that you chose to conveniently ignore, that alone speaks for itself.

I never advocated for anyone to leave America. What I question is the right of my government to get me involved in a conflict that is not my fight. If you are Jewish and this is your fight, then grab a gun and go fight there. Until then, don't ask me or any of my loveones to die for you while you stay here. If you are a Palestian, I have the same answer for you.

As for your reference to France and WWII, for one, I do not speak for the French but you are quick to again hit below the belt. Yes, they were French who collaborated with the Nazis and this is not a proud part of French History but since you are quick to give lessons of morale, where was America until 1942?

One final point: I do not hide behind a pseudonyme, you know ny name. And I do not use a badge to beat my chest. Since you are a federal agent involved in counter-terrorism, don't forget, in the great spirit of tolerance for those who happens to disagree with you, to have my name added to your watch list. Indeed the fact that I question why my government foreign policies have resulted in the fact that, now, in my own country I have to worry if my loves ones are safe, makes me a very dangerous person. No, wait, this would be to easy. Why not instead put me in a camp, where you can have me re-educated until I finally see your light.Better yet, why don't you put me on trial for blaspheme since I commited the mortal sin of questionning the well-being of our politicians' motive.

To answer me on the points I question in my email was apparently to difficult for you.

Delation is a much better way.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Blue,



To answer your points, again I have no question about where my loyalty lies. As I said and repeat here, I am an American. Period. Not a Christian-White-French American. This is an important point that you do not appear to want to address when dealing with the Jewish question. Again, I don’t feel anyone should loose their lives for something that is not their business.

”You say that you are an American by choice, but a Jew who stays in America, his own homeland, is, what, a coward?” Yes I do and I will explain why:



The whole point is that if you want to make any American‘s religion relevant to this discussion then you have to consider the whole thing and not choose only the points that sustain your side.



If you are an American looking at the situation in the Middle –East, your position as a mediator, a referee is to remain fully objective. This has been less than the case with our policy in the ME for the very reasons I explained in my first posting.



If on the other hand, if you choose to bring religion in this discussion, then my point is fully valid. In this case if a person happens to feel so strongly about it that she behaves as a Jew first and an American second, then he/she should have the courage to die for their ideas. Same thing for anyone who want to drag us into their local conflict.



“(This is why I suggested that perhaps we should use the same logic to invite you to leave. It was an illustration.)” That would be right except for one thing: I do not ask for anyone to go to war for me. Therefore your point does not really apply


”What I don't understand is the basis for you, a naturalized American, who allegedly served under the same Constitution I have sworn to uphold, to point to others and state that they should go live elsewhere” Let me clarify that I never claimed to served in the US force. I served in the French Forces. Later in life I became a US citizen. One has nothing to do with the other. As for the “allegedly” I will be more than happy to answer any specific question you might have about my record.



“Why? Because they are Jews? So, somehow they are less American than other Americans?” No they are not! Again this goes back to the point of whether they are simply American or if you choose to bring in the religious factor. I, as a Christian do not ask Mr. Bush to nuke Israel because Israeli snipers were shooting to kill inside a Christian Holy Site {I can imagine the uproar if an US soldier happened to do the same in a synagogue}, nor do I call for a Holy crusade against the Palestinians for desecrating the church of the Nativity.

”American by choice? Those sentiments don't sound American to me. They sound more like the Vichy government to me.” While I do not give you the right to question my patriotism, I will answer by pointing out that I do not ask for anyone to go fight my war. I believe that America should keep its nose out of the world business and focus instead on the problems that are affecting us. Do I believe in isolationism? Yes. These are my views and I don’t expect you to have the same. In my case, I have seen enough dead bodies to steer away from rumors of war. As for the reference to Vichy, that was an unnecessary comment that does not add any class to your previously well stated points.



Vicks in his posting probably hit the nail right on the head. Maybe I should have used the word “Zionist” rather than Jews. Fact is I did not intend for my position to be a Jewish debate. I was initially answering a post that I felt had no business in this forum. Not2sharp has also a good point with Yvsa.



We do not have to ever agree on anything but I would hope that like me you would prefer to read about Knives when going to this forum rather than politics.



Best regards,

Pierre
 
If this is where I am supposed to backpedal & say I did not intend a personal attack, BS! If my directness offends, stop sounding like a bigot & you won't be labeled as such.

Blues, your "final solution" comment is interesting. I was half-expecting to hear that the holocaust was a Zionist fabrication &/or that 9/11 was our fault.
 
Finally, Pierre, my record on investigations and accomplishments will stand on its own, without need for me to beat my breast about it here.

Send people to camps? No, I took an oath to uphold the Constitution and that is what I do. I am proud to do so and have my own battle scars to show for it. I stand up for people of all denominations. I would have difficulty living with myself if I didn't. I don't like what you say or what you represent but I wouldn't waste a moment of time trying to find out any more about you than I have already. You have the right to think and say what you will, and I defend your right to do so.

Pursue enemies both foreign and domestic? Yes, you bet I do. I am fortunate enough that I have never had a case lost at trial despite the right of the defendant to a rigorous defense...

...And I have never been accused of selectively enforcing the law against any particular group of people whether by religion, ethnicity, culture or race. I am proud of my record.

I am an American and I don't always agree with my government's actions despite my employment. I choose to vote and voice my stance when and where necessary. I choose no nation before this one, but would not blindly support U.S. policy if I found it morally reprehensible. I will always stand up for my beliefs.

You take great umbrage at me responding to the things that you have said both here and in email you sent to me. But they were your own words, I didn't choose them for you. I think you "protest too much" to paraphrase someone more eloquent than I.

Your divisiveness is of your own making. Your own choice.

I am through with you. You may continue your explanations and apologies. They are wasted on me.
 
You take great umbrage at me responding to the things that you have said both here and in email you sent to me.
Click to expand...

No, I do not. My issue is with your inability to remember the full content of my position, your selective memory. In your eyes and Brian's, I committed the mortal sin to question why we have lost total credebility in the ME by being one-sided or why we are even involved in the first place. I guess, thanks to you, JDL must have me on file by now. Don't worry since I don't support Arafat either, I am probably already on Hamas' list


I stand by what I wrote: If this is your war, go fight it THERE! Until then, I reserve the right to disagree with you on why I should loose anyone to YOUR cause.

It is because of the likes of Torquemada, Meir Kahane and Sheik Yassin that we have to live in a dangerous world. I , for one, am only interested in peace.

PS: If wanting peace is such a crime, I guess the 60.OOO Israelis that just demonstrated for it must be traitors/bigots/anti-semites to the both of you too.
 
Blues is a super moderator. I don't know what authority and power he has nor what I have but my guess is since he is a super moderator and I am a moderator he would have more horsepower than me -- AND -- he saw fit to NOT to delete or censor this thread and NOT to ban anybody because he didn't like or agree with what they said..

This does not susprise me since I've had the good fortune to meet Blues in person and speak with him at length. He is indeed a defender of the constitution -- and so am I.

It is of the utmost importance that we allow each man to speak his piece regardless of what position he might take. This is free speech. We don't have to agree and we don't even have to read the posts.

We can say, well, this is just a forum and it's supposed to be about knives so we can censor as we like and it won't matter. BUT IT DOES MATTER. This is how freedoms are lost: We censor the HI forum. Then we censor Bladeforums. Then we censor the net. Then we move to newspapers. We then listen on the streets and censor there. Finally, that thing we called free speech is gone. Let's get rid of the first amendment and then go to work on the second. And that's how it's done.

If there is anybody here who does not understand or disagrees with my position let me know.
 
If this is your war, go fight it THERE! Until then, I reserve the right to disagree with you on why I should loose anyone to YOUR cause.
Click to expand...

You seem to have a very myoptic veiw of the political world. The Middle East represents a global political problem. The battle might be taking place in Israel and the Palestinian Territories between the outcasts of Europe and those of the Arab states, but the real issue is much bigger.

What exactly would you suspect would happen if the Palestinians were to drive Israel out of existence? Do you think the victors will simply have a beer on the beach and break out the suntan lotion?

The economic and internal political problems of the Middle East are not simply going to vanish with Israel. Our victors will simply have to focus their frustrations somewhere else in order to stay in power. We suspect that "somewhere else" would be the US; but I am sure that Europe will get its due share. I see no reason to repeat Czechosolovakia (3/1939), you do not appease people as long as they refuse to address their own internal issues. If you try to do so you will simply encourage and grow the problem. You will strengthen the very forces that have created the crisis.

In short, it is very much your fight. Whether you fight it now, or practice dropping your rifle is up to you.

n2s
 
Czechosolovakia (3/1939)

We don't need a replay.

I am not smart or wise enough to have the answers but this much I know for certain: No problem is ever solved by ignoring it.
 
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