Lets talk GEC!

[rcs86]

I have had an account for a while, but just now made the plunge to a paid membership. Thought it would be appropriate to make my first "upgraded" post in my favorite thread from my favorite forum. Here's one of my favorite GEC's and one of my favorite fountain pens. Happy Friday!

 

[knifeswapper]

so was it a bandwidth/internet speed/server issue? Your site was jammed up pretty good for a good ten minutes I want to say.

CPU bound. 6 cpus bogged handling 500 users signing in; changing passwords; navigating screens; hitting refresh instead of waiting; sending confirmation emails; etc. etc.

I know for a fact that people have created programs that do exactly what you are claiming is a myth. They were used widely for purchasing Playstation 5 consoles which people flipped for 2-3x the cost. A simple internet search will reveal a lot of information about purchase bots that can add an item to your cart, fill in shipping and billing information, and complete the purchase in milliseconds. This is why many sites implement captchas because the bots have a hard time getting past them.

I don't imagine bots are being used to buy GEC knives, but bots are developed/used all the time to buy stuff online. Obama even signed legislation banning the use for ticket sales of tickets obtained buy the use of bots.

I'm not saying a good developer, given a static website, couldn't develop some automation to flow from a known product page thru a known checkout process. I'm saying that I have simply never seen a bot that could be utilized to watch and purchase a product that a) was on a dynamically created page up drop; b) had to be purchased via a unique cart process which varies from dealer to dealer; and c) pay via a unique payment process. I could write one that would work given I knew every specific keystroke that was required on a specific site. Matter of fact, go find one... I will put in $1000 store credit if you can produce a bot that can buy a newly added product on my website (a standard platform) from spotting the drop to finalizing payment without any human interaction. Either it exists or it doesn't.

knifeswapper Only way for GEC to stop flippers is double their prices and sell direct only. Have a limited sign up / pay in advance period, close it and make the ordered knives. This wouldn't be good for you and other dealers, but it would stop the flippers and significantly increase their bottom line. Am really surprised GEC hasn't broken the code.

Not addressing your post with the entirety of my post here. But I will say that it is curious how many people can solve problems with solutions that would never be implemented. And if they were, and failed, there would be a whole new reason for the failure and new idea to correct it. I have found it (speaking about myself here) bordering simple to solve the worlds problems given that my solutions are never implemented such that I can witness all the fallout and blowback from such actions. Also, I find it curious how many people will so clearly see solutions to todays problems without the foresight to understand that situations change - sometimes very quickly. Had GEC decided to sell straight from the factory store in the beginning - we would not be having this conversation as they would have folded after 6 months in business. And it is somewhat short-sighted to assume that there will not be a time again when expendable income is in short supply. This week I had an element go out on my hot water heater. I have seen / resolved this many times; thus I actually have experience in solving this exact problem. Surprisingly in real life when I get knee deep in the fix - things were different this time. It took 2 days for this old fat knife peddler to get my 17 year old back into that hot shower that the lack of was ruining their life. You know as well as I do that surmising solutions from a surface view has a success rate much lower than you would want to bet the livelihood of 30 families. I have mentioned before that I have told Bill myself maybe he should hire two more employees and sell direct. The conversation that ensued made it obvious that this would only work temporarily and any market change would break them for several reasons. But, since Bill is in the middle of this 10 hours a day, 5 days a week; I will give him the credit for understanding his role and the role of others.

Not to mention that your recommendation would require 1000 more rules instead of just a simple "you order them - we'll make them" approach. Does the factory decline orders of quantity just to protect the market from seeing the products second hand? I can see it now: Bill says "No, we are not taking your order for 10 of these knives because you might flip them later. We will just work until noon today to keep someone else from making money on our knives". Or what about the 25% (made up stat from personal experience) of customers that paid no attention when the books were open; but the second they were closed "had been on the search for this exact knife for years".

Not trying to bash or argue; just trying to help reconcile the difference between a possible good idea and the implementation of a good policy / process for all involved parties. You let this economy turn down and small factories will be tickled that they have a distribution network that can help them advertise and maintain an inventory that would collapse a 30 employee company. Solving today's problem with a solution that would be wrong in most other environments is a fairly easy choice to me (at least, for me). Matter of fact, it is exactly the same dilemma I am facing right now. Why am I selling to customers at a price that leaves me a bit of profit; when I could go direct to eBay and make more on one knife than I currently am on 20 knives? Because I have been around long enough to know that this is just the perfect storm. Things will change and the customer base will remember who appreciates them more than the $$$. So, to your advice, it "wouldn't be good for you and other knife lovers, but it would stop the flippers and significantly increase my bottom line". Yet I still haven't broken the code - not because I'm an idiot; but because it would feel like cheating my best friend.

 

[cbr1000]

Talk about beating a dead horse. Seems like the topic of availability pops up with a vengeance every few years.

I used to be able to shop for weeks at a time to pick the perfect Northwoods or GEC stag... those days are gone and I hope they don't come back. The way I see it, if GEC is readily available it's either because they are kicking them out in higher volume, or quality goes down and people stop buying them. Be careful what you ask for. We are already seeing the effects of this with the loss of SFO's. It's been a slow road, but every year there's been something dropped. It started with higher production numbers of an individual frame thus limiting the number of runs of different models per year, then no stag shields, less cover variation, no serial numbers, no SFO's, no we won't do the blade forum knife... Repeatedly hammering on GEC social media may get what you want, but in the end you may lose what some take for granted.

 

[NewBlades16]

Talk about beating a dead horse. Seems like the topic of availability pops up with a vengeance every few years.

But remember that this just culminated to a boiling point when DLT released the production TC for less than half the price of the sfo. That's not all because of extra production costs for the sfo. People feel bamboozled.

 

[knifeswapper]

But remember that this just culminated to a boiling point when DLT released the production TC for less than half the price of the sfo. That's not all because of extra production costs for the sfo. People feel bamboozled.

This seems like a bit of a mis-characterization of the current discussion. DLT sold the knife at GEC's minimum allowed pricing. Charlie allowed his dealers as well as himself to make some money on a legacy he helped build. I personally made exactly the same margin on the Sepia as the Glitter Gold - and do not begrudge Charlie for making some money as well. The Osage will be @70 and the smooth autumn @75.

Does it show that sfo's have more margin built into them - I think everyone already realized that. If the Sepia were a general production run; it would have been $80+. I think Charlie did what a good many are recommending that GEC do itself - he raised the price to keep some of the money between his cost and what people feel the knife is worth.

 

[Viper84]

I'm not saying a good developer, given a static website, couldn't develop some automation to flow from a known product page thru a known checkout process. I'm saying that I have simply never seen a bot that could be utilized to watch and purchase a product that a) was on a dynamically created page up drop; b) had to be purchased via a unique cart process which varies from dealer to dealer; and c) pay via a unique payment process. I could write one that would work given I knew every specific keystroke that was required on a specific site. Matter of fact, go find one... I will put in $1000 store credit if you can produce a bot that can buy a newly added product on my website (a standard platform) from spotting the drop to finalizing payment without any human interaction. Either it exists or it doesn't.

What you are describing is exactly what flippers do. A good programmer can make a separate bot that is tailored to each website they want to purchase from. They can also constantly watch the website for new drops. I'm not 100% certain that anybody is actually doing that with GEC knives, but where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Pàdruig]

He had a night a couple weeks ago where he said some pretty wild stuff (all hilarious btw) and some people were unkind to him. To me, his posts are some of the more entertaining you will find on this here porch. I hope he comes back soon, and I hope people will get off their high horses when he does. The man loves knives.

There is no denying the One Armed Man's enthusiasm for knives - I think it is fun and irksome at the same time. When I find it irksome, I scroll on down - "sticks and stones... but words..." and all of that. I have seen him reprimanded on multiple forums though and the most recent time was here for making some rather uncouth comments that don't have a place here. Overall though, I think folks have been quite patient with him, given his circumstances.

I hope he is ok and I hope he makes a return - one might say that his enthusiasm is infectious.

Repeatedly hammering on GEC social media may get what you want, but in the end you may lose what some take for granted.

I've seen some of the commentary on GEC's social media - it is... unpleasant. Folks really need to chill.


The most most money I have ever paid for a GEC was just north of $200 and that was for a Red Soup Bone TC. However, it is a knife that I had wanted since I first laid eyes on it and I knew that I would be paying a premium. That said, I still maintained patience and I let a number of them slide past me at higher prices ($300+) - I knew what I was willing to pay and I stuck to it. Eventually, my patience was rewarded and I was able to work with a very fine member here to acquire this desirable knife that had been produced several years prior.

There is a difference between the prices that flippers immediately set and the price of a knife that has legitimately risen in value due to scarcity and/or rarity. Unfortunately, these days, collectible knives have become a form of currency and it's used to buy, sell, and trade accordingly - fostering no attachment to the knife, but rather what it can get you down the line.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I will put in $1000 store credit if you can produce a bot that can buy a newly added product on my website (a standard platform) from spotting the drop to finalizing payment without any human interaction. Either it exists or it doesn't.

Make that in GEC knives and.......

 

[Jiki]

but where there's a will there's a way.

@Will Power is building bots?. I knew it.

 

[knifeswapper]

Make that in GEC knives and.......

Done! Two Glitter Gold barlows.....

 

[Jiki]

Done! Two Glitter Gold barlows.....

Flipping them for $500 each I see. SMH.

 

[Pàdruig]

Done! Two Glitter Gold barlows.....

I was going to say, you could give him a pile of GEC 97s...

 

[NewBlades16]

T

This seems like a bit of a mis-characterization of the current discussion. DLT sold the knife at GEC's minimum allowed pricing. Charlie allowed his dealers as well as himself to make some money on a legacy he helped build. I personally made exactly the same margin on the Sepia as the Glitter Gold - and do not begrudge Charlie for making some money as well. The Osage will be @70 and the smooth autumn @75.

Does it show that sfo's have more margin built into them - I think everyone already realized that. If the Sepia were a general production run; it would have been $80+. I think Charlie did what a good many are recommending that GEC do itself - he raised the price to keep some of the money between his cost and what people feel the knife is worth.

This seems like a bit of a mis-characterization of the current discussion. DLT sold the knife at GEC's minimum allowed pricing. Charlie allowed his dealers as well as himself to make some money on a legacy he helped build. I personally made exactly the same margin on the Sepia as the Glitter Gold - and do not begrudge Charlie for making some money as well. The Osage will be @70 and the smooth autumn @75.

Does it show that sfo's have more margin built into them - I think everyone already realized that. If the Sepia were a general production run; it would have been $80+. I think Charlie did what a good many are recommending that GEC do itself - he raised the price to keep some of the money between his cost and what people feel the knife is worth.

The discussion has really evolved and mutated into different angles. I understand your margins but is the price difference all legacy and sfo? Look at shipping costs for the sfo. All the knives went to Charlie, right? So that is cheaper shipping than sending regular production of the same knife to different dealers. I should say that hypothetically, if the same same number of knives were made for an sfo and a regular production of the same knife.
These recent daily discussion got elevated when Chief posted the DLT drop. We have always talked flippers but now many are also talking about dealers acting like flippers and Charlie's sfo seemed to get intertwined in that because of the price. I don't blame Charlie for making a buck, and I do respect him to the end,but I do think it raised eyebrows when DLT price was revealed. That's the bamboozle point.

Also, did dealer margins in the past for different patterns have this sizable magin.

I'm, and many others are looking at it from the customer point of view and maybe you are looking at it from the Charlie's(dealer's) point of view.

Lastly, You mentioned why you don't sell to customers at a higher price or go ebay. You said it! Because you feel a friendship with your customers. And imagine if you did go ebay pricing. Imagine how disappointed your friends on here would be? You know how well respected and looked upon you are on the porch. As customer's point of view, being your clout on the forum, I think you would sabotage your GEC business. Of course, just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[Kickingwing]

Hello y’all, I’m still new to how things are done here, though I’ve been a lurker for quite some time. I was just curious if anyone could point me to the direction of where I could possibly find either a north woods Harrison bay, or a gec 14, the same pattern, for sale? Are they only secondary? Can I get lucky and find them somewhere else? Sorry, new to slipjoint knives as well. Anyhow, thanks for any help!

 

[mrknife]

Hello y’all, I’m still new to how things are done here, though I’ve been a lurker for quite some time. I was just curious if anyone could point me to the direction of where I could possibly find either a north woods Harrison bay, or a gec 14, the same pattern, for sale? Are they only secondary? Can I get lucky and find them somewhere else? Sorry, new to slipjoint knives as well. Anyhow, thanks for any help!

Those are runs from some time back, you will have considerable difficulty most likely finding them at a fair price, unless you have something to trade. Might do better on the 14s.

 

[knifeswapper]

The discussion has really evolved and mutated into different angles. I understand your margins but is the price difference all legacy and sfo? Look at shipping costs for the sfo. All the knives went to Charlie, right? [Not correct] So that is cheaper shipping than sending regular production of the same knife to different dealers. I should say that hypothetically, if the same same number of knives were made for an sfo and a regular production of the same knife.
These recent daily discussion got elevated when Chief posted the DLT drop. We have always talked flippers but now many are also talking about dealers acting like flippers and Charlie's sfo seemed to get intertwined in that because of the price. I don't blame Charlie for making a buck, and I do respect him to the end,but I do think it raised eyebrows when DLT price was revealed. That's the bamboozle point. [It was not the DLT price; DLT just goes with the minimum price required by GEC; others are free to charge what they will]

Also, did dealer margins in the past for different patterns have this sizable magin. [ I don't understand this question. Charlie's knives always have run with standard #15's with a sizable price difference. Most people realized early on that they were paying a premium.]

I'm, and many others are looking at it from the customer point of view and maybe you are looking at it from the Charlie's(dealer's) point of view. [ No, I am looking at it from all points of view. It just seems as if your eyes have only now been opened to the fact that there is a third layer of distribution on Charlie's sfo's. As I said, I would have made essentially that same margin had it come straight from GEC. Charlie has built his right to profit from his baby; and his secondary market value eliminates most from raising much of a fuss. A $100 only cost a couple cents to make. I continued buying them, knowing exactly what his margin was because I knew my customers wanted them. And people have no issues buying them because they don't go down in value.]

Lastly, You mentioned why you don't sell to customers at a higher price or go ebay. You said it! Because you feel a friendship with your customers. And imagine if you did go ebay pricing. Imagine how disappointed your friends on here would be? You know how well respected and looked upon you are on the porch. As customer's point of view, being your clout on the forum, I think you would sabotage your GEC business. Of course, just my thoughts and opinions. [There is a difference between treating people right because of conscience and because of profit. If you only treat customers with respect while it doesn't interfere with margins; did you really ever respect them to begin with. I treat people how I would like to be treated. But there is zero chance that the loyalty of friends on social media would ever cover the gap I am losing by not selling out. I love you; but what genuine loyalty actually exist between us knife hoarders is not a windfall to the bank account. As I said earlier; he will make more money on this run of barlows at $385 per than I made in 2020 in my entire business.]

Specific responses inline. I could honestly not buy another knife of any other brand and just sell GEC's on eBay - and make more money (and a lot less work). That may be the realization that has already been made by smaller dealers.

 

[Chief]

knifeswapper TC SFOs have been $127 MSRP for a several years, that's what Charlie has charged me. Am happy to see Charlie (distributor) make some money from them, he deserves it for being their cheerleader / advocate. The current "perfect storm" of slipjoint popularity has been going on for years with no indication of lessening. Large tactical knives are not welcome in more and more environments with no turning back. My experience as a day trader taught me the trend is strong, you can take it to the bank (I did). GEC needs to take advantage of the trend. When / if the trend changes, companies should be dynamic enough to change. And change again. I successfully ran an organization with a $350M budget per annum and later retired from a Fortune 10 company. ATT didn't stick with copper wire home phones when everyone went to cell phones and they aren't looking back. Recognize the trend and change. Hoping it might change back is folly in my real world experience.

Doesn't take 1000 new rules to sell knives, I did that too, sold $100K of Microtechs gross my first year while additionally working full time. Let's make it simple.

1. GEC has a huge presence on social media. Huge. Dwarfs BF where they have zero presence outside dealers and customers. GEC announces new run on their social media outlets (free advertising) and web site. GEC announces they will take orders for new run for the entire month of February, orders must be paid in full when ordering. No limit. If you can't buy what you want in a month, you miss out or potentially pay more later. A month is a lot better than 10 seconds and a lucky horseshoe. Feb 28 at midnight ordering stops. March 1 GEC begins shipping orders in the order received.

2. Rinse and repeat for each new release. GEC profits skyrocket even if they don't raise prices. Flippers' profit evaporates so they move on.

Hate to see a dealer / flipper make more on one knife than you make on the entire sku. Am not good with that because I've been in those shoes as a knife dealer. Not fair. Not right. I closed Chief's Cutlery as a result of unfair dealings from the factory selling to different dealers at different prices. The sweat / dirt on my farm hat didn't come from flipping.

 

[JTB_5]

knifeswapper TC SFOs have been $127 MSRP for a several years, that's what Charlie has charged me. Am happy to see Charlie (distributor) make some money from them, he deserves it for being their cheerleader / advocate. The current "perfect storm" of slipjoint popularity has been going on for years with no indication of lessening. Large tactical knives are not welcome in more and more environments with no turning back. My experience as a day trader taught me the trend is strong, you can take it to the bank (I did). GEC needs to take advantage of the trend. When / if the trend changes, companies should be dynamic enough to change. And change again. I successfully ran an organization with a $350M budget per annum and later retired from a Fortune 10 company. ATT didn't stick with copper wire home phones when everyone went to cell phones and they aren't looking back. Recognize the trend and change. Hoping it might change back is folly in my real world experience.

Doesn't take 1000 new rules to sell knives, I did that too, sold $100K of Microtechs gross my first year while additionally working full time. Let's make it simple.

1. GEC has a huge presence on social media. Huge. Dwarfs BF where they have zero presence outside dealers and customers. GEC announces new run on their social media outlets (free advertising) and web site. GEC announces they will take orders for new run for the entire month of February, orders must be paid in full when ordering. No limit. If you can't buy what you want in a month, you miss out or potentially pay more later. A month is a lot better than 10 seconds and a lucky horseshoe. Feb 28 at midnight ordering stops. March 1 GEC begins shipping orders in the order received.

2. Rinse and repeat for each new release. GEC profits skyrocket even if they don't raise prices. Flippers' profit evaporates so they move on.

Hate to see a dealer / flipper make more on one knife than you make on the entire sku. Am not good with that because I've been in those shoes as a knife dealer. Not fair. Not right. I closed Chief's Cutlery as a result of unfair dealings from the factory selling to different dealers at different prices. The sweat / dirt on my farm hat didn't come from flipping.

Sounds like Bill could hire you as a consultant, John!

 

[cbr1000]

What you are describing is exactly what flippers do. A good programmer can make a separate bot that is tailored to each website they want to purchase from. They can also constantly watch the website for new drops. I'm not 100% certain that anybody is actually doing that with GEC knives, but where there's a will there's a way.

He put down a $1000 dollar bet to prove him wrong.

 

[knifeswapper]

knifeswapper TC SFOs have been $127 MSRP for a several years, that's what Charlie has charged me. Am happy to see Charlie (distributor) make some money from them, he deserves it for being their cheerleader / advocate. The current "perfect storm" of slipjoint popularity has been going on for years with no indication of lessening. Large tactical knives are not welcome in more and more environments with no turning back. My experience as a day trader taught me the trend is strong, you can take it to the bank (I did). GEC needs to take advantage of the trend. When / if the trend changes, companies should be dynamic enough to change. And change again. I successfully ran an organization with a $350M budget per annum and later retired from a Fortune 10 company. ATT didn't stick with copper wire home phones when everyone went to cell phones and they aren't looking back. Recognize the trend and change. Hoping it might change back is folly in my real world experience.

Doesn't take 1000 new rules to sell knives, I did that too, sold $100K of Microtechs gross my first year while additionally working full time. Let's make it simple.

1. GEC has a huge presence on social media. Huge. Dwarfs BF where they have zero presence outside dealers and customers. GEC announces new run on their social media outlets (free advertising) and web site. GEC announces they will take orders for new run for the entire month of February, orders must be paid in full when ordering. No limit. If you can't buy what you want in a month, you miss out or potentially pay more later. A month is a lot better than 10 seconds and a lucky horseshoe. Feb 28 at midnight ordering stops. March 1 GEC begins shipping orders in the order received.

2. Rinse and repeat for each new release. GEC profits skyrocket even if they don't raise prices. Flippers' profit evaporates so they move on.

Hate to see a dealer / flipper make more on one knife than you make on the entire sku. Am not good with that because I've been in those shoes as a knife dealer. Not fair. Not right. I closed Chief's Cutlery as a result of unfair dealings from the factory selling to different dealers at different prices. The sweat / dirt on my farm hat didn't come from flipping.

I too have been in the real world. Worked for a company that implemented solutions with a single $500M project just being one of many per year. I have sold 6 figures of GEC's yearly for a decade. I might understand GEC as well as anyone outside the factory walls and talk to the guy frequently that understands it completely. So, we will just have to agree to disagree that our personal experiences and successes can translate into telling a unique niche company in Pennsylvania how they should run theirs. There are simply too many aspects to any business to expect an outsider to navigate your path. I do understand that you are using intelligence and past experience to propose possible solutions. I have called Bill many times to do similar; and by the time I hung up the phone was so grateful that I didn't have his job.