Lets talk GEC!

I'm sorry to jump in out of nowhere with this. I haven't been on the forums as much lately. But I've still been very involved with GEC and the knife world.

I don't typically have much criticism for GEC. I think they often receive undue criticism. I am obviously a big fan of their knives and, having been fortunate enough to meet and talk with Bill William Joan Mae Sue Chris etc. several times, I think they're nice people who try make the best knives they can and run the business the best they can. Things are tough right now for small businesses, and I understand that covid and the resultant restrictions were a serious blow to them and I'm very glad they've managed through it so far.

That said, I don't like how this run of #15s was handled on the communication front. Historically, they have almost always announced all the versions of a pattern that are coming on a run (excluding certain SFOs). This is also a normal industry practice, even in modern knives, to announce a new model or series ahead of time. They also have typically announced the runs with at least a little advance. This run of #15s was not announced basically until the first version was finished (sepia sawcut). Then another version was announced (glitter gold). Then again more were announced (rose gold and osage). Then yet another version (cocobolo). And I suspect at least one more will be announced. All separately.

I don't know if this is intentional or just from how production has worked on this run. But I think it makes purchasing more difficult in a time when that's the last thing that's needed. If it seems that they're only making one or two versions, you might think you have to choose between those and get one (and therefore do buy one) when if they had announced all versions at once you might have actually preferred a different version.

I think this is detrimental for several reasons. First, at least for me, it is more taxing financially. I know some people just buy all the versions of a pattern that they like, and that's fine, but I don't (or at least never have until this month). Yes, I know you could sell the ones you don't like and not lose money and keep the ones you do. But that brings me into the second problem, and that is that I think this can make more people try to get each version of the pattern than would if they were all announced ahead of time. This makes it more difficult to get each version and possibly helps keep the secondary market as high as it is. Again, I don't know if this was done intentionally on this run or if it has been done in the past and I'm not recalling. People often accuse GEC of "marketing" by creating artificial scarcity. I have argued against that idea many times, in my videos and in Facebook groups and here. Again I don't know if this run was done this way in an actual intentional attempt to create artificial scarcity, in fact I highly doubt so, but it is the first thing that I can recall that I think could even be reasonably argued as such (even if in reality it isn't such).

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong Mike) that knifeswapper knifeswapper said Bill said his intention was to make some really big runs with the goal of knives being on dealers' shelves for 60-90 days, and the more I think about it the more I would be okay with that. Sure, it'll mean long stretches between new knives. That probably won't be good for my channel, but it'll sure be good for my wallet and the time I put into the chase.

I am certainly still a huge proponent of GEC and their knives. I recommend them to people constantly (btw, I like the #06 and #97 and they're both still on dealers' shelves 90+ days after release). I carry them pretty much daily. I will still stop at the factory when I can. I still am really looking forward to the Rendezvous. My point is, please don't take this too negatively. I just wanted to point out this aspect of the #15 run that the more I think about the more I am not happy about.

I lurk too often and figured I should weigh in once in a while. I have become quite a fan of GEC knives over the past few years (mostly due to this forum) and if they're producing a pattern I think I'll like, I try to get at least one. When I first discovered GEC I took for granted that they posted the production schedule several patterns in advance. The fact they posted it contributed to the excitement and appeal of eventually purchasing one of their knives.

Anyway, last year there were long stretches that GEC didn't update their production schedule, and I'm sure I was not alone in checking their website frequently hoping that I would see a new pattern pop up on the schedule, and then being bummed when there wasn't.

I agree that not posting an advance schedule increases demand for whatever pattern is currently in production, and not knowing is frustrating. The uncertainty of what is coming next leads to knife collectors wondering whether the current knife being produced may be the last chance at a GEC they want for their collection for many months into the future. So they rush to buy upon release.

My main point is this: GEC must have a good reason for the change in communication to us (the knife nuts via their website). I don't think they can be accused of malevolent communication strategies (for lack of a better term, although I wouldn't describe the way the #15 schedule was rolled out as malevolent, but it's Friday night and I can't think of an appropriate adjective) towards the knife buyers and I'll give a couple reasons why. They post production pictures of most knives they produce, before they're shipped to dealers, and often more than one update per pattern - meaning they're pretty open about how the knife will look in hand and give us opportunity to see variations in handle materials, etc. Now, you could argue that they're trying to artificially inflate demand by doing so, but my opinion is that is not their style. They also post production totals every year and that takes the speculation out of what quantity of a given knife was produced. They don't have to, but they still do. GEC thinks it's in their best interest to communicate the process to the end user. Maybe that's part of the enjoyment they get out of it. GEC openly communicates so much about production, I have to believe they communicate as much as they can because they want to communicate as much as they can.

My best guess is that the reason they don't communicate the production schedule as far in advance as they used to is because they need to keep their options open. Maybe they can't depend on materials being available, or maybe they can't depend on having their full production staff so far into the future with possible shutdowns looming. I've never ran a business. I don't know. There is an American manufacturer of modern folding knives that regularly makes known the knife models that will be coming out over the next few months. I think there are still several models originally scheduled to be released last year that still have not come out. Granted they are a bigger knife company than GEC from what I can tell, but if GEC put out their production schedule well in advance and wasn't able to follow through, how would that play out? I doubt it would play out better than the current situation.

Not trying to pick on you L.H.S, I share the frustrations you point out.

Until there are more American companies offering a competitive product to GEC, as a user/collector I have to concede that demand will far outweigh supply especially as knowledge of GEC spreads on social media and by word of mouth. I will be happy with whatever knife or knives I end up with (or may not end up with) based on the effort I'm willing to put in to get one. Please excuse the long-winded post. Just my $.02, however I'm not as serious a collector as some. I am proud to own American-made cutlery by GEC and I admire what they do because I don't think they have any direct competitors.

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The last run of 14’s was one of the greatest runs they have ever made. Every option was attractive and the action on all of these knives was perfect.

I wish they would produce a run of 15’s like this. They have never made regular 15’s with shields. 15’s have always been either high end (TC’s or Scouts) or plain/no shield Boys knives. They could make 5000 of each option and they would sell. Seriously, where are the cool looking regular 15’s.
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The last run of 14’s was one of the greatest runs they have ever made. Every option was attractive and the action on all of these knives was perfect.

I wish they would produce a run of 15’s like this. They have never made regular 15’s with shields. 15’s have always been either high end (TC’s or Scouts) or plain/no shield Boys knives. They could make 5000 of each option and they would sell. Seriously, where are the cool looking regular 15’s.
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Were the Scouts considered high end when they were released in '13? I remember taking a week to decide if I wanted to spend the money before giving in and ordering. (Ah...back in the day...)

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Were the Scouts considered high end when they were released in '13? I remember taking a week to decide if I wanted to spend the money before giving in and ordering. (Ah...back in the day...)

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Good point. I think at the time the no-bail scouts were considered “regular” knives and these are an example of what I’d love to see more of from GEC; good-looking 15’s with shields.
 
The last run of 14’s was one of the greatest runs they have ever made. Every option was attractive and the action on all of these knives was perfect.

I wish they would produce a run of 15’s like this. They have never made regular 15’s with shields. 15’s have always been either high end (TC’s or Scouts) or plain/no shield Boys knives. They could make 5000 of each option and they would sell. Seriously, where are the cool looking regular 15’s.
I wanted to like the 14s, kept buying them but also kept selling them. Kept the dead skunk because it’s the only knife I have in that cover. The 5 or so that I had at one point or another were all great knives, no issues at all maybe frame is just a bit small for me I guess.

I’m always curious about the decision process that determines the size of the runs. Why 4-5k 97s and then a 400 run in something else. Maybe bigger runs are revisited less often? I haven’t done the homework to say if that’s the case.
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And those that feel like they should get more for their $65, might be happier with a handful of rr's.
That's probably an accurate description of me! :rolleyes:

All of what I just said only makes sense if you understand that 'quality' is not the same as 'value'. I think it's Juran who defined 'quality' as 'fitness for use'. 'Market Value' is the aggregate of what people are willing to pay for something. So a new TC Barlow that's not hitting the quality expectations that everyone has come to have, based on the past TC Barlows, might still have a crazy-high market value, because of limited quantities and high demand.
This distinction between "quality" and "value" is important to me. Knives from different manufacturers usually differ in both quality and value, but I always want the "ratio" to be the same for quality and value. For example, if the value of A's knives is 10 times the value of B's knives, I'd expect the quality of A's knives to be 10 times the quality of B's knives. But, based on my inexpert assessment of quality, that usually doesn't happen. Much more common, in my opinion, is A's knives selling for 5 times the price of B's knives, but I can't see that the quality of A's knives is even twice as high as the quality of B's knives. To me, that says A's knives are "overvalued".

YMMV, of course. (And I know I'm totally ignoring "new value" versus "resale value" and how those should factor into some global value number. I'm no economist or market analyst, for sure! :rolleyes:)

- GT
 
For example, if the value of A's knives is 10 times the value of B's knives, I'd expect the quality of A's knives to be 10 times the quality of B's knives. But, based on my inexpert assessment of quality, that usually doesn't happen.

GT, a couple of points about your post. I would change the word value in your statements above to price. When the quality is commensurate with the price, you have value. The problem, though, is the same in nearly every field of manufacture: each step up in quality costs proportionally more. Often as much as double the cost to get even a noticeable increase in quality. Also, how consistent is that quality? Rough Ryders are such a good value because their quality is unusually high for such a low price, and they are very consistent in quality. I would argue the same holds true for GEC, and also for quality customs. In putting some average retail prices on these, I'd say RR about $15, GEC about $95, and customs about $600. Now I have RRs that are every bit as good as the average GEC, and also GECs that are every bit as good as the average custom, but it's rare. It's why consistency is so important to quality. It's also why I didn't include Case and Queen in this discussion; because their quality is so inconsistent it is difficult to categorize them. With these brands you want to inspect the knife to see if the quality is there, but with RR or GEC or many customs, you pretty much know what you are gonna get. While I have owned a few customs, I am perfectly happy with GEC's quality, and the value for me is not there with a custom. You seem to be happy with the level of quality in RRs, and don't see value in spending the extra coin for a GEC, at least very often. Its great to have value choices at all levels of expenditure, and to me, the joy of collecting is finding the niche that makes you happy.
 
The last run of 14’s was one of the greatest runs they have ever made. Every option was attractive and the action on all of these knives was perfect.

I wish they would produce a run of 15’s like this. They have never made regular 15’s with shields. 15’s have always been either high end (TC’s or Scouts) or plain/no shield Boys knives. They could make 5000 of each option and they would sell. Seriously, where are the cool looking regular 15’s.
58ovmxj.jpg
Totally agree with you Travman. That last 14 run was perfection! I’d be all over a similar 15 run.
 
That's probably an accurate description of me! :rolleyes:

This distinction between "quality" and "value" is important to me. Knives from different manufacturers usually differ in both quality and value, but I always want the "ratio" to be the same for quality and value. For example, if the value of A's knives is 10 times the value of B's knives, I'd expect the quality of A's knives to be 10 times the quality of B's knives. But, based on my inexpert assessment of quality, that usually doesn't happen. Much more common, in my opinion, is A's knives selling for 5 times the price of B's knives, but I can't see that the quality of A's knives is even twice as high as the quality of B's knives. To me, that says A's knives are "overvalued".

YMMV, of course. (And I know I'm totally ignoring "new value" versus "resale value" and how those should factor into some global value number. I'm no economist or market analyst, for sure! :rolleyes:)

- GT

Some of the value needs a crystal ball - some does not. When I buy collections, the chinese knives (RR, Marbles, etc. etc.) go in a bucket. Anybody that wants $1000 retail worth of these for $300 - just private message me. They are great for using, practicing mods, determining interest in a particular pattern, or throwing in a tool box, etc. But I don't guess I have ever seen one even get near the retail price on the secondary - and I don't consider it simply discrimination.

Every knife has a price where it is a value. If the retail is in that range, outstanding; because that is a good thing in todays economy. But if you are buying a $50 knife and cleaning battery terminals with it, obviously your idea of value and my idea of value are different from the offset. Every person definitely needs to set their own criteria. But don't be offended if the future disagrees with your past assertions.
 
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