Lightweight ManixII questions

[pwet]

gin1 and BD1 sounds spot on with the "hard use" concept of the manix 2 ... i'd prefer a simpler steel with less carbon and less alloys on a knife i'm going to beat. it will always be tougher and, more important, easier to repair if i do something stupid with the blade.

 

[spydusse]

Yeah and they also said xhp was a stainless d2 but for me xhp greatly outpreforms d2

 

[Locust]

Thanks for the information. I love my Manix II but it can be a tad heavy. This sounds like a nice alternative.

 

[xtestifyx]

gin1 and BD1 sounds spot on with the "hard use" concept of the manix 2 ... i'd prefer a simpler steel with less carbon and less alloys on a knife i'm going to beat. it will always be tougher and, more important, easier to repair if i do something stupid with the blade.

I'm not sure how Less carbon and less "alloys" in a knife means it's tougher

 

[Pete1977]

I have never used any of the current incarnations of the Manix. The FRN version interests me. Will there be a fully serrated model or just plain edge and combo edge? If there is hopefully they will be shallow and not-pointy

I prefer a "less-super" steel for a knife that is going to see a lot of work. I would rather have the option to field sharpen a knife with as little hassle as possible if I damage the edge beyond its ability to cut effectively.

 

[asupernothing]

I am starting to think that all these new super steels are overshadowing the good old 440c, which could take a good edge, had a ton of free chromium, and was easy to sharpen. All those things make it an excellent blade steel, and there is more to it than just hardness.

 

[JNewell]

Yes...well hardened, shaped and sharpened, there is nothing at all wrong with 440C or lots of other "old" and "inferior" steels.

 

[pwet]

I'm not sure how Less carbon and less "alloys" in a knife means it's tougher

yeah i know heat treat and geometry are the most important ... but generally speaking less carbide volume, less alloying element means more edge stability, at the same RC that's why you don't see much choppers made from S30V ...that's why 3v has less that 1%carbon ... it's not a new idea is it ?

 

[xtestifyx]

yeah i know heat treat and geometry are the most important ... but generally speaking less carbide volume, less alloying element means more edge stability, at the same RC that's why you don't see much choppers made from S30V ...that's why 3v has less that 1%carbon ... it's not a new idea is it ?

It makes no sense. Since when is impact resistant and edge holding the same thing.

Also, please explain to me if 420J2 is a good tough steel to you, it has a carbon content of 0.15%

CPM-3V has 0.80% of Carbon, are you going to tell me every steel that has around 0.80% Carbon is going to be as tough as CPM-3V?

Stop making stuff up, please.

Edited to add: Carbon content is only a part of the story. There are more things that make us alive than Blood in our bodies

 

[pwet]

being that harsh doesn't make you sound smarter, it doesn't prove you right either, please stay polite.

yup carbon AND alloying elements are parts of the story, but when it comes to comparing steels, not finished knives, they are the biggest part of the story. along with the fabrication process. this is comparing steels one can also heat treat S125V to 50hrc and it will be tough ... but i'm not making stuff up saying than the more alloying elements you have in a steel the more brittle the steel will be.

i'm pretty sure that whatever i say you will say i lie because you sound pretty sure of what you say, sure enough to be rude. no i'm not making anything up.

so i quote from KF "in the kitchen section". a few generalisation from larrin thomas (devin thomas' son, metalurgist) who is know for making stuff up ... here is the link so you can see i'm not making up the quotes too ... http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/809833/

The following steel information was written by Larrin Thomas)
Carbides – Simple explanation: Hard particles formed in steel when carbon forms with iron or transition metals.
In depth: Carbides control greatly the level of wear resistance and toughness in a steel. Because carbides are extremely hard, a great volume of them will make a steel very brittle, especially if the carbides are large and unevenly distributed. Steels vary from nearly 0% all the way to 30% carbide volume.

oughness - Simple explanation: Ability to resist chipping or breakage.
In depth: Toughness is controlled by amount of carbon in solution, the hardness the steel is heat treated to, the carbide size and volume, and the other alloy in solution. High amounts of chromium weaken grain boundaries (though generally carbide size and volume is the limiting factor as far as toughness in stainless steels). Nickel and silicon in moderate amounts increase toughness without effecting strength. Carbide size and volume are probably the greatest controlling factor for toughness.

he must be making stuff up too ...



edit just to clarify i spoke about edge stability wich you seem to have mixed up with edge retention. they are not the same thing there's a small explanation for that on the link i provided. edge stability is more boound with carbide volume than carbon content and is somewhat related with toughness.

that's not my knowledge, that's from someone who spent years learning about steels and that's only simplification so US knife users can understand what we talk about. but if YOU know more than HIM, then sorry.

 

[xtestifyx]

being that harsh doesn't make you sound smarter, it doesn't prove you right either, please stay polite.

I've been nothing but polite, I did not call any names or make accusations. If you proved your point, then I wouldn't tell you to stop making things up, because it honestly still makes no sense to me. I'm trying my best to learn here but Toughness/Edge Stability makes no difference in a Manix as it does not take abuse close to a chopper

yup carbon AND alloying elements are parts of the story, but when it comes to comparing steels, not finished knives, they are the biggest part of the story. along with the fabrication process. this is comparing steels one can also heat treat S125V to 50hrc and it will be tough ... but i'm not making stuff up saying than the more alloying elements you have in a steel the more brittle the steel will be.

You're jumping from a Spyderco Manix with CTS-BD1 to comparing raw steel. It doesn't matter if CPM-125V is tough as nails or if it can chop down 15 trees and shave hair.

You said:
gin1 and BD1 sounds spot on with the "hard use" concept of the manix 2 ... i'd prefer a simpler steel with less carbon and less alloys on a knife i'm going to beat. it will always be tougher and, more important, easier to repair if i do something stupid with the blade

You gave me an example of S30V not being used in choppers, that's because it was made by with aide from Chris Reeve to be a fine cutlery steel, not a steel that needs high toughness and shock resistance like S7.

According to Larrin Thomas, more carbides make a steel brittle. I completely agree with that, but it still does not help with your point. I know for a fact ZDP 189 is brittle steel because of it having 20% Chromium Carbide content, it's brittle but even at that level, what kind of things do you do that will cause you to prefer something like BD-1? Are you putting them through abuse?

That's all I'm getting at. No reason at all to prefer BD-1 for hard use over anything else.

If you need something to abuse, then you're obviously using the wrong tools for the job.

 

[pwet]

ok you must be right.
after saying you didn't see why carbon and carbide content made a steel tougher, now you agree with the fact but don't see why i would need it.

all i see is that you need to be right. so you are. amen.
let you play alone, there's no fun for me in arguing on the internet.

 

[xtestifyx]

Carbides make it brittle, your point was Carbon Content means toughness

ZDP189 has Chromium Carbides, BD1 has less Carbon. ZDP Brittle, BD1 tough?

BD1 isn't tough because of the Carbon content. That is all