Liner Lock quality on Military?

D. Epstein · Dec 4, 1999

I'm seriously considering buying a C36 Military, but I want to ask, how many people here have had accidental blade closings on this model?

I'm not a fan of liner locks at all, but I really want this model.

Thanks in advance,

D. Epstein

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"If they do these things in a green tree, what will they do in a dry?"

Carl Jacobsen · Dec 5, 1999

Well, I can't give you a direct answer, as I haven't gotten a Military yet, but I do have a Starmate, which is basically a different shape with all the same construction materials and techniques, and I've got to say, the liner lock on the Starmate is really fantastic. Got it in August, carried it much of the time since, and have had zero problems.

I've been gravitating slowly towards the "no more liner locks" camp for a while, but the Starmate and Military are definite exceptions to the rule...

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Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921 /\/\/\ San Diego, California

Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 5, 1999

Some of the best liner locks are Spyderco liner locks.

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Johnny
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sing · Dec 5, 1999

I am in the "no linerlock for future purchases" camp. However, I got a Military on a trade. I am impressed with this knife. I am impressed with the lockup. Yes. I banged it around and will continue doing that every so often.

BTW, I have a photo comparing the thickness of the linerlock and their positions on the tang of MY KFF, Military, BM Sentinel and Spyderco Viele. As a clarification, the positioning of Sentinel lock shifted from left to middle in less than a year. The Viele came with linerlock tucked to the right but otherwise holding well with no play yet.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=135433&a=992914&p=13495373

sing

AKTI #A000356

cerulean · Dec 5, 1999

hmm...interesting photos, sing. I personally have reservations about linerlocks, but my Military seems to be doing well, even though I've only had it about a month.

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Cerulean
Denver, CO

Dexter Ewing · Dec 5, 1999

Of my three Militaries, none of their locks have failed, or show any signs leading to that. The serrated Military is my default hard use knife, and after all I've put it through, the lock still holds rock solid. With any liner lock from Spyderco, you have no worry. They know how to build 'em right!

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Dexter Ewing
Knife Reviews Moderator
AKTI Member # A000005

misque · Dec 5, 1999

What Dexter said!
I'll add that I've cycled my Military in excess of a thousand times (while watching the idiot box at night) and the liner still passes a spine whack test and has not moved at all. It's seen a great deal of use to boot. This leads me to think that this is a knife that can be passed on to your children. IMO, they are the BEST liner locks out there, bar none.

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So, what IS the speed of dark?

[This message has been edited by misque (edited 05 December 1999).]

D. Epstein · Dec 6, 1999

Thank you for your responses.

I took the plunge. I've "joined the Military" Ha Ha!

I should know by Wednesday what all the excitement is about. Maybe this will be the long awaited succesor to my venerable Police model (and maybe not). We'll see.

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Happy Holidays

dogboye · Dec 6, 1999

Another thing to note with the Military. Due to the design of the blade (with the large finger choil on the first... quarter(?) inch), if it does experience a failure, unless you're gripping it way back toward the aft end of the grip, you're more likely to get your index finger pinched than cut (off?

)

. I have small hands, and I pretty much have to be gripping my Mil with my pinky finger resting on the slight hook at the end before my index finger would actually get really sliced. With my hand in the normal position that I usually use a knife for utility, my finger would just get pinched by the choil. (Not to say that wouldn't be painful, and very irritating, but it is much better than the alternative.) With my hand in the normal position that I use the Military, my index finger is on that choil, and I will know immediately if the blade starts to move. Besides that, I'm putting more direct pressure on the blade itself and not just the handle. That is the reason I finally took the plunge and bought the Military. I'm a devout no-liner-lock fanatic, btw.

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It just a ****ing staple!!
Guess who...
St. Mary's County, Republik of Marilundt

sing · Dec 6, 1999

Rockspyder,

Good point about the choil design.

So, are you tired of being O_D? But you're still upset about that staple, eh..?

sing

AKTI #A000356

dogboye · Dec 6, 1999

I was getting tired of having to type in Outlaw_Dogboy every time I posted (for some reason, when I check remember id and password, it just doesn't take), and I read some thread about the big push for 4K. So, I made like a Vampire Gerbil/Fireprez and registered as rockspyder. Not a lot better/shorter, I guess, but at least I don't have to keep searching up on the symbol line of the keyboard

. And I have to keep the signature line for a while, just so no one thinks I'm an up-and-coming troll / hacker wannabe.
I am still using Outlaw-Dogboy occasionally, if I want to make certain people know who I am. I may keep it alive, if Mike/Spark (and Sal and other forum modertors don't mind), since it is my real nickname here where I work.

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It just a ****ing staple!!
Guess who...
St. Mary's County, Republik of Marilundt

Sergiusz Mitin · Dec 7, 1999

I like Walker's liner-lock but in this case it's not essential.
How can you break locking device and cause knife accident closing? Only hacking with great force with blade opposite edge! In this case locking device will be overloaded and can break. I think nobody does something like it in common sense.
When you use knife in normal mode (cut or stab) locking device isn't loaded at all. If you would do your cut or stab with outstanding (superman) force you can break stop pin or blade pivot pin but not locking device whichever type it would be. So the most critical points of each folding knife by the nature are pivot pin and stop pin. Even not pins as itself but the points where they are embedded into scales and/or liners. If you are feeling yourself not enough comfortable with these doubts you simply must have fixed blade knife instead of folder.
But I never heard if somebody would ask, "How strong is pivot pin or stop pin on this particular model?"...
On the other hand, knife manufacturers have something like an auction who makes the strongest locking device. Reading advertising info carefully it's almost impossible to find a "normal" lock and you must choose between "rock-strong", "super-strong" and even much more strong than "super" ;-)
Is it truth? More or less in most cases.
Is it truth in SPYDERCO case? YES! I haven't the Military but I have the Starmate, which has basically the same mechanical side. The liner-lock is properly engineered and flawlessly performed, you can be completely sure about your finger safety.

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Sergiusz Mitin
gunwriter
Lodz, Poland

Cliff Stamp · Dec 7, 1999

The lockup on the Military I had was very unstable when I first got it. I could not use the blade with any force at all as it would disengage the lock. When I tightened my grip any extent the line would ride along with my palm and move off of the lock face. A strained grip was not necessary as very little force was required.

I sent it in to be repaired and it was improved but still not 100%. It was still unsecure and thus not usable. I gave it to a few friends and some had problems and some did not. The main problem is that the liner is too open and prone to catching on the skin of your palm. I never had any problem with deeply recessed liners like on the mini-AFCK I had. I returned the Military to James for a refund.

-Cliff

ptn · Dec 7, 1999

D. Epstein,

You will enjoy owning a Spyderco Military knife.

I think the liner lock design inspires some skepticism in all discriminating observers. One looks for the weak point in a folding knife or any knife. One sees cheap and or poorly done linerlock knives. Around here we have our "I'll never own (another) liner lock" choir but even many of them respect the Military linerlock. If you use the knife properly as a cutting tool, you will neither stress nor accidently release the lock. I still contend the weakest point on a folding knife is the operator's competence.

Spyderco liner locks have a great reputation because Spyderminds never stop thinking of ways to make their knives better.

2 cents.

ptn

[This message has been edited by ptn (edited 12 December 1999).]

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 7, 1999

Sergiusz Mitin,

You make some valid points and most would agree with you. But when a lock fails it almost always has nothing to do with lock strength. Lock strength as in the lock suffering damage. Locks fail because of lock reliability (liner slipping off the blade tang). Have you performed spine wack tests on your liner locks? If not I strongly suggest you do. Knowing the limits of your folder may save your fingers one of these days.

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Johnny
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Sergiusz Mitin · Dec 8, 1999

Johnny,

I thought about lock failure without breaking (liner slipping off the blade tang). If liner lock is properly engineered and executed - I think it's impossible. Please see the STARMATE lock: blade tang surface has bevel closely near 90 degrees (may be 3-5 degrees more) where it interacts with locking liner. I can't to imagine situation when liner would travel backwards and slide out of the blade tang. Secondary bevel of blade tang has visible larger angle to prevent liners overtravel, so the liner slipping in this direction is also impossible.
The only failure, which I can to imagine, is thin liner loaded along its plane can lose the stability and can be bent. Sorry, I studied my metal technology in Latvian more than 25 years ago and I don't know how this phenomenon has to be named properly in English.
However I think this can occur in situations by far out of knife normal use.

Another thing if lock is engineered or/and executed improperly, for ex. liner overtravels all blade tang thickness and stops on washer. In this case failure is possible by all means, especially if washer is made of plastic. But you can see it first time when you will take knife into your hand.

No, I didn't make experiments to load the blade spin until knife will break or locking device will fail. Here, in Poland good knives are too expensive and our salaries are too small for this kind of experimentation.
If Sal would agree to be a sponsor - may be I would make a barbarism breaking my STARMATE in this way.
However, as I said previously this situation is considerably out of knife normal use and I'm not sure this experiment will add something to my knowledge about knives.
With the same success testing handgun (I do it frequently) I could try to know what could occur if the shot would be made with clogged barrel. Or how much would I clog up the barrel to break the handgun if shooting...

D. Epstein · Dec 8, 1999

Sing, what is a KFF?

I probably should know, but I can't figure out which knife that is.

sing · Dec 8, 1999

D.Epstein,

KFF is the Kasper Folding Fighter. It's designed by Bob (?) Kasper, knife fighting instructor and custom made by Pat Crawford.

It's solid knife with an ergonomic handle that helps with grip retention as well as pommel strikes. The depth and stock width of the blade are wider than most folders out there. The lock leaf is thicker than most and fully recessed. The KFF is clearly designed and carried out for a specific purpose.

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 08 December 1999).]

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 8, 1999

Sergiusz Mitin,

As I've stated before Spyderco liner locks are very good. But you should still test them along with all your other liner lock knives. It seems unlikely that the lock will fail, but you never know. The tests I'm referring to are non destructive, your knives should not be damaged by them. Hit the spine of your knife with light to moderate pressure against a desk top and see if the lock fails. Also keep your fingers away from the path of the blade, in case it does close. Also use your palm and put pressure against the spine of the blade. Make sure your other hand is positioned so that if the blade closes it does not cut it. These tests can be found in the blade forums FAQ's. You cannot tell if a liner lock will fail merely by looking at it. Also if you only use your knife for light cutting, then you really don't have to worry too much about accidental blade closures, but you should be aware of them.

Again, these tests should not cause damage to any of your knives.

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Johnny
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Sergiusz Mitin · Dec 10, 1999

OK Johnny,

I performed this test on all my linerlocks. I haven't too much, here is the list:
Starmate and Walker Lightweight (SPYDERCO)
AFCK (Benchmade)
Gray Ghost and Commander Doolittle (CRKT)
JetEdge2 and Pentagon Elite (SOG)
D2 Extreme (Ka-Bar)
Ti-Hawk (Kershaw)
Two or three Taiwan made nonames
No one liner lock failed; maybe I'm lucky chap.

Now tell me please what this test proves? If I understand properly each test must to simulate the real situation, sometimes with great deal of abuse, right? But here is the test, which simulates absolutely improper knife use. I could understand even if you would test knife as a crowbar. It's also improper use, but I can to imagine situations when I simply must to do it. On the other hand I definitely can't to imagine situation when I would hack something with the folding knife blade spin.
I think this test proves nothing.
Returning to handguns. Reliability test means how reliable this gun shoots, but hot how reliable it serves as a hammer, it's nothing to do with reliability.