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Liner Lock V/S Lockback!
- Thread starter RJT
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
David -- YOu're not being a pest! I *like* hearing about lock failures. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.
I've only heard of one Axis lock failure, from someone on the group saying it happened to a friend. This was an accidental disengagement failure. That was the only datapoint, and the circumstances seemed a bit fuzzy. That's part of the reason I feel better about the Axis -- but as I've been saying, it's still a new lock, still a bit too early to draw any really firm conclusions.
I also do agree strongly with Anthony Lombardo. Just as an extra margin of safety, the buttons should be lower-profile. Anthony, can you describe here or email to me your axis-defeating process? I'd like to try it myself.
I've been using the Axis as my everyday work knife, and have subjected it to some serious torture and torquing in all manner of grips, with not even close to an accidental disengagement so far. My fingers have never ended up even touching the lock button, ever. Still, I'm keeping my eyes open for any other possible problems.
Say, has anyone else handled the Speed Tech knives? They use a button lock, but the button is very well protected. I'd venture to guess that accidental disengagement would be fairly impossible. The lock seems to work by pushing a metal sleeve back across the blade tang -- same kinda general pin-block principle that the axis and rolling lock use. This might be a really good lock to watch.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
I've only heard of one Axis lock failure, from someone on the group saying it happened to a friend. This was an accidental disengagement failure. That was the only datapoint, and the circumstances seemed a bit fuzzy. That's part of the reason I feel better about the Axis -- but as I've been saying, it's still a new lock, still a bit too early to draw any really firm conclusions.
I also do agree strongly with Anthony Lombardo. Just as an extra margin of safety, the buttons should be lower-profile. Anthony, can you describe here or email to me your axis-defeating process? I'd like to try it myself.
I've been using the Axis as my everyday work knife, and have subjected it to some serious torture and torquing in all manner of grips, with not even close to an accidental disengagement so far. My fingers have never ended up even touching the lock button, ever. Still, I'm keeping my eyes open for any other possible problems.
Say, has anyone else handled the Speed Tech knives? They use a button lock, but the button is very well protected. I'd venture to guess that accidental disengagement would be fairly impossible. The lock seems to work by pushing a metal sleeve back across the blade tang -- same kinda general pin-block principle that the axis and rolling lock use. This might be a really good lock to watch.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
- Joined
- Jan 20, 1999
- Messages
- 738
This is certainly a frequent topic...for good reason....
Does anyone understand the difference between the axial lock on the Paul knife and the lock that BM is now using in its Axis etc? ....or have any references to its design? I have never looked for the patent, but I imagine I might find information there. I suspect that an older (expired?) patent might be less available without some effort. Obviously, patent law is not my area.
At the moment I am relying on my integral lock. Joe, did you ever get your Sebenza?
I do note that my Paul knife lock never failed, but one does have to make sure it is fully open.
The axis lock by the way is fully diagramed at equipped.com . Any such source for the rolling lock?
I came back to edit this to aplogize for straying somewhat from the stated thread, although other locks are mentioned by various posters
, probably for good reason. It seems to me the real question is what knife and lock combination can be trusted AND is available on a knife that one likes and can afford or at least buy.
[This message has been edited by Donald (edited 03 June 1999).]
Does anyone understand the difference between the axial lock on the Paul knife and the lock that BM is now using in its Axis etc? ....or have any references to its design? I have never looked for the patent, but I imagine I might find information there. I suspect that an older (expired?) patent might be less available without some effort. Obviously, patent law is not my area.
At the moment I am relying on my integral lock. Joe, did you ever get your Sebenza?
I do note that my Paul knife lock never failed, but one does have to make sure it is fully open.
The axis lock by the way is fully diagramed at equipped.com . Any such source for the rolling lock?
I came back to edit this to aplogize for straying somewhat from the stated thread, although other locks are mentioned by various posters
[This message has been edited by Donald (edited 03 June 1999).]
- Joined
- May 18, 1999
- Messages
- 1,708
(holding my Axis as I type--sort of)... getting an Axis lock to fail during normal usage would *appear* to take an Act of Congress. Obviously, nothing is made that strong, but you know what I mean. The only time my thumb has slipped off, it ended up pushing the lock forward, engaging it more.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 3,148
Envision quickly snatching an AXIS from your pocket and getting into a guard position.
If you follow the Kasper dogma and curl your thumb along the slide of the handle, it is possible (esp. in a hurry) to curl your thumb from the forward position of the bolster-back, causing a lock-disengagement with your thumb knuckle.
Slicing a thick object (like a loaf of bread)could concievably cause an unlocking as well
A deep stab into resilient matter (ahem, flesh) could also accidentally (conceivably)unlock the AXIS, although I havent tried .
Does this happen frequently? No. Only once actually and once I eased up opn my thumb pressure the lock engaged.
I would just like the buttons to protrude less or maybe be flush with the scales.
No one was ever better off because they were able to swiftly close their folder.
If you follow the Kasper dogma and curl your thumb along the slide of the handle, it is possible (esp. in a hurry) to curl your thumb from the forward position of the bolster-back, causing a lock-disengagement with your thumb knuckle.
Slicing a thick object (like a loaf of bread)could concievably cause an unlocking as well
A deep stab into resilient matter (ahem, flesh) could also accidentally (conceivably)unlock the AXIS, although I havent tried .
Does this happen frequently? No. Only once actually and once I eased up opn my thumb pressure the lock engaged.
I would just like the buttons to protrude less or maybe be flush with the scales.
No one was ever better off because they were able to swiftly close their folder.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Thanks Anthony. The first method -- where the thumb is curled up on the side of the handle -- I guess I could theoretically see happening. It hasn't happened to me in any tests I think because for my thumb to get there just right, the knife is so uncomfortable in my hand. Probably uncomfortable enough that I'd rather step back and firm up my grip first. Also, I typically don't curl my thumb up on the side, which of course more or less rules out this problem for me.
I'm going to continue to play around with the knife strictly with combatives in mind, and see if my quick draws realistically end up on the lock release buttons.
In any case, I agree again, the lock release buttons should be more flush. That's one thing going for the Pinnacle and integral locks in general -- nothing unlocks those knives unless you do it on purpose.
Joe
Joe
I'm going to continue to play around with the knife strictly with combatives in mind, and see if my quick draws realistically end up on the lock release buttons.
In any case, I agree again, the lock release buttons should be more flush. That's one thing going for the Pinnacle and integral locks in general -- nothing unlocks those knives unless you do it on purpose.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,959
I've got a Spydie Police and an AFCK.
The Police is a great knife, and I can't knock the design, but in MY hand, everytime I get a fighting grip on it, the blade unlocks immediately!
The geometry of the AFCK and the Police are almost identical where grip is involved, but the liner lock eliminates the problem I experiance with the lockback.
Personal problem? Maybe, but the AFCK has NEVER let me down or unlocked during use, and I use mine HARD! It cuts aluminium core material for Aircraft daily, shaves burrs, you name it the AFCK does it. Oh yeah, every once in awhile I cut tape with it too! LOL
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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
The Police is a great knife, and I can't knock the design, but in MY hand, everytime I get a fighting grip on it, the blade unlocks immediately!
The geometry of the AFCK and the Police are almost identical where grip is involved, but the liner lock eliminates the problem I experiance with the lockback.
Personal problem? Maybe, but the AFCK has NEVER let me down or unlocked during use, and I use mine HARD! It cuts aluminium core material for Aircraft daily, shaves burrs, you name it the AFCK does it. Oh yeah, every once in awhile I cut tape with it too! LOL
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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
Joe,
"Don't get too complacent because of the name on the knife! Test it for safety, especially if it's a liner lock!"
I appreciate your admonition, but realize that I have tested my SOCOM's lock and found it to work better than any other liner lock design I've come across so far. And there are sound functional reaons why I prefer the SOCOM's design over lockback design. I know you're regarded as an expert here, but what basis do you have for insinuating that just because I dared to hold an opinion contrary to yours, I must have arrived at it without careful consideration? Be careful what you say.
So that no one is confused, I'll add some clarification to what you called a "strong statement"
My problem with lockbacks is not so much with the strength of the lock when engaged, so much as the fact that most can be quite easily disengaged just by holding the knife, because the lock release is not out of the way. Of course, this can happen with liner locks too. If I hold my beloved SOCOM real close to the guard, the meaty part of my hand can push the liner over. Still, out of all the lockbacks and liner locks I've tried, the SOCOM has given me the least problems.
The only designs I've seen (used) which overcome this limitation (accidental lock release) are the Integral Lock, Rolling Lock, and Axis Lock. I personally like the integral lock design best because of its simplicity (hell, I wish Chris Reeve would make longer folders-and I know I'm not the only one). Not that I would I would trust my life with any folder. I actually prefer fixed blades and balis. But the SOCOM and Sebenza have proven to be solid and reliable utility knives.
I know you're a big fan of the Axis. Now that I've finally got one myself, I think I can understand why. There were quality control issues with some of the 710's I received, but the ones that were done right have been working extremely well so far. I share your early enthusiasm for the Axis and like you, will reserve final judgement until it has seen some more time.
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It is not what he can do that makes a man great, but what he actually does. - Black Jack (formerly Black Deuce)
"Don't get too complacent because of the name on the knife! Test it for safety, especially if it's a liner lock!"
I appreciate your admonition, but realize that I have tested my SOCOM's lock and found it to work better than any other liner lock design I've come across so far. And there are sound functional reaons why I prefer the SOCOM's design over lockback design. I know you're regarded as an expert here, but what basis do you have for insinuating that just because I dared to hold an opinion contrary to yours, I must have arrived at it without careful consideration? Be careful what you say.
So that no one is confused, I'll add some clarification to what you called a "strong statement"
My problem with lockbacks is not so much with the strength of the lock when engaged, so much as the fact that most can be quite easily disengaged just by holding the knife, because the lock release is not out of the way. Of course, this can happen with liner locks too. If I hold my beloved SOCOM real close to the guard, the meaty part of my hand can push the liner over. Still, out of all the lockbacks and liner locks I've tried, the SOCOM has given me the least problems.
The only designs I've seen (used) which overcome this limitation (accidental lock release) are the Integral Lock, Rolling Lock, and Axis Lock. I personally like the integral lock design best because of its simplicity (hell, I wish Chris Reeve would make longer folders-and I know I'm not the only one). Not that I would I would trust my life with any folder. I actually prefer fixed blades and balis. But the SOCOM and Sebenza have proven to be solid and reliable utility knives.
I know you're a big fan of the Axis. Now that I've finally got one myself, I think I can understand why. There were quality control issues with some of the 710's I received, but the ones that were done right have been working extremely well so far. I share your early enthusiasm for the Axis and like you, will reserve final judgement until it has seen some more time.
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It is not what he can do that makes a man great, but what he actually does. - Black Jack (formerly Black Deuce)