Liner locks fail???

M

MrPres

Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
345
The latest trend seems to be a lack of confidence in liner locks (and I'm guilty as charged). I just wanted to know if anyone has any legit case of a liner lock failing. And please don't tell me that a knife that you bought at the swap meet failed. I'd like to hear if there are any decent quality liner locks that have actually failed on anyone. Thanks
 
A decent amount of my knives are liner locks, and even the cheap ones have never failed on me.
 
AFCK and the mini AFCK. Myriad CRKT linerlock failures. There's a reason they added the LAWKS on all those CRKTS.

Phil
 
No liner lock failures on my AlMars, Benchmades, Microtechs, Masters of Defense, or Emersons. Of course, I don't treat folders like fixed blades either. Some of the .001" thick liners on the cheapo Chinese knives look scary to me. Luckily, I don't own any.
 
Using the Search feature of the forum, you can likely find a number of posts and threads concerning liner lock failures.

Common issues I've seen include failure on spine-whack tests, when twisting the blade, and some folks don't like how their fingers are exposed when closing the blade.

I've never had a problem with any of my liner locks.
 
No failures on me....I test them with hard torqueing in a vice grip, hard spine whacking both following through and letting bounce off, I try and wedge the liner to the opposite side with a flat head screw driver, I try to put pressure against the spine gradually and then I try and smash the LAWKS device with the liner (as some say it just bends).

Needless to say, flawless. Three or four other folks repeated my tests on their M16s with the same results. There were no negative results.

Test them yourself on a reputable knife (not a cheapie).

Personally, the only ones that have failed on me were cheap lockbacks.

You'll raise a lot of fuss about this. Best to test it yourself, find your results, and if you find them to agree with mine, just drop it--you could test every existing liner lock in the world and it wouldn't convince even one person.

That said, with the exception of the lockback, which I find to be the least reliable of lock types, there are a lot better locks than the liner. The compression lock, as far as I can tell, should not cost any more than a conventional liner lock and is far superior in both ease of use and strength. Of course, it doesn't mean spyderco won't charge you 3x for it, but if Buck, Kershaw or CRKT ever gets ahold of it, you'll probably be getting them for under 50. The axis lock is great also, though a few people have reported failures, which, under our fantastic rational logic, should imply that axis locks are just too darn unreliable to ever be trusted.

Lock strength and reliability is mostly all in your head and good marketing. I think I'm right about liner locks, essentially every one else thinks I'm wrong, but if you test it, I'm confident you'll come out with the results I did. So the only real solution is to trust neither side and find out for yourself.
 
I've had a linerlock failure when cutting back some bushes in the garden some years ago. What happend was that the knife closed on me when I was trying to get it free from a branch it had got stuck in. The result wasn't really pretty - deep cuts across two fingers, necessitating a quick visit to the emergency unit of the nearest hospital and a few stitches. The knife involved was a quality knife from a well-known manufacturer. It was fairly new, and it had passed the spinewhack test.

Ever since then I've avoided linerlocks like the plague. I much prefer using more reliable lock designs, especially lockbacks, or indeed a slipjoint. With a slipjoint you know you've got to be careful, with a linerlock you never know whether you can rely on it or not.

Hans
 
I have read about the 'abundance' of liner lock failures but have yet to find any real convincing real life stories that involve failures where the knife was at fault other than testers that set out from the minute they get one in their hands to find fault with it and defeat it and those that buy them blindly loyal to a maker or manufacturer believing all the hype about hard use knives, and other nonsense.

In real world use, 90% of the time when a lock fails its due to user error, bad judgement, not taking proper care of the knife or a combo of all the above. To me those defeat tests don't count for much. Most every failure I have read of has been from operator error or stupidity if not both and not the fault of the knife or the particular lock type it was equipped with. Rarely does it have much to do with how well it was made, how many metallurgical degrees, or mechanical engineering classes the maker has had or anything else. It has more to do with the things the knife was used for, the condition it was in at the time of the failure and also the age among many other factors. The ones that are problematic usually show that trait early on and you then need to weigh if you want to carry it or not.

STR
 
I have many liner locks including but not limited to Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck, Buck/Strider, Boker, Cold Steel, and Camillus. I've never had any of them fail me and I'm sure that owners of many of the high-end brands (Al Mar etc.) can say the same. I think the liner failure is overexaggerated and the spine whack test would only possibly be duplicated in real life in a SD situation. Having said that for a SD/Combat knife I would pass on a liner for an axis or a lockback. This is not so much due to the superior strenght of the axis or lockback (which both should be) to the liner but due to the fact that a Spyderco with a Boye dent and a Benchmade with an axis are far less likely to be accidently disengaged than a liner lock. However for most EDC issues a quality liner is no problem and certain models are just fine for SD it has a lot to do with how the knife ergos are and how you hold it, liners are most often disengaged by a torqueing/twisting motion or by using with the left hand.
 
CRKT M-16
3-4 Emerson Commanders
1 Emerson P-Sark
1 BM AFCK
1 Spyderco Military
1 Spyderco Starmate
1 Al-Mar SERE 2k

And my current EDC a Lonewolf T-2 is getting finicky in it's old age. (requiring more frequent cleaning)

These are all liner lock knives that I have had fail. I'm pretty sure there's more, but this list is just off the top of my head. Not doing psycho crap like trying to chop down fence posts with the knife spine, most of these have failed spine whack tests off of my pudgy little forearm.

Not saying that I believe they're all inherently evil, as a matter of fact I'm halfway in the market for Emersons as I type this, just that I like to check out liner locks before I bring 'em home, and I fully plan to send 'em back for warranty work eventually before I even purchase them. All of the forementioned companies have had excellent customer service when I've sent knives back to them.
 
[deliberate evaluations]

STR said:
To me those defeat tests don't count for much.
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Yes, they should obviously wait for it to happen in actual usage as only that is meaningful. Similar to when you get your brakes fixed because you broke a cable you should not test them immedately you should wait until you need to stop to see if it was fixed. Now that just sounds silly doesn't it.

The reason people test liner locks is because they are known to be problematic to white knuckling, torques and impacts. Every single one I have used, ~300$ integrals included, all fail them, some require more effort than others, but none of them require forces that would overstress the blade.

-Cliff
 
I am not a fan of spine whacking to test the locks. Particularly if the liner lock you own is a titanium one. Whacking them can cause the locks to indent severely causing more damage than just breaking one in. I'd suggest light sharp taps, over whacking.

Locks can be tested without having to whack the crap out of it to find out if its trustworthy.

STR
 
Can someone explain what exactly happens within the liner-lock system when there is a failure please? Does that lock tab slip to the side of the blade base during a failure?

The only liner-lock's I'm familiar with are on my M18 and prowler.

Thanks
Wayne
 
I think it involves first sticking the blade in a vice when open. Either that or a log where you baton the blade into it and twist your wrist while squeezing the knife.

According to Cliff it just takes normal wrist flex or simple rotation of the forearm while holding the folder to do this. I stuck my Buck 882 Tarani in a log (deep) after batoning it in and then I twisted to the three o'clock and then the 9 o'clock positions while pushing and pulling down on the body of the folder and the lock held up admirably. I twisted so hard and held it so tight it hurt my hand to do so and couldn't make the lock fail or even give other than flexing in the middle. The lock turned on radius with the body but stayed in the middle of the blade securing it like it is supposed to. In the end the log split in half and the knife came out with a lock that travelled slightly farther than before the test but still locked up solid as can be asked for.

I have not been able to duplicate the claims made by Cliff for these liner lock failures that are apparently so easy for him to make happen. In my own tests of some liner locks I have they held up better to spine taps than lock backs and even some axis locks. I even bought a $6 CHINA made Winchester knife at Wal-Mart trying to duplicate his feat and all that happened was that the twisting motion of rotating my wrist caused the pivot pin to shear on one side popping the knife apart but the lock held. Go figure.

I would think if you want to get real world input on liner locks you have to ask the guys that carry and use them everyday like all the Emerson fans and Strider fans and those that carry BenchMade and Spyderco liner locks in both war time and military and Law Enforcement, as well as fire and rescue work. I don't hear a lot of these guys complaining or writing long winded diatribes about liner locks cutting them up from unexpected failures. In fact it is just the opposite from this. They love them and have used them for many years and in many cases these knives have been used hard. Ernest Emerson is one of the most respected makers of knives in the industry and credited with single handedly changing the face of the tactical folder. His CQC 7 knife is one of the all time best selling tactical folders ever made. On top of this Ernest is a self defense and tactical response expert that trains many of our best military and policemen and he makes liner locks and frame lock folders.

The real proof of all this hype is in the real world use of these knives not in some test where a knife is viced in a shop and beat to hell to make it defeat by someone that has already made up his mind about them before he even took possession of the knife. It is not real world when a knife is defeated at the request of the maker. Those tests, much like those done by Cold Steel that they do not allow you to duplicate are entirely 'out there' above and beyond what the folder is made to do and the guys doing that to them know it. That is my opinion anyway.
 
STR said:
You like to break them, chip them, and do things no one else will ever do to them ...
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This is highly exaggerated nonsense, the vast majority of the work done with the vast majority of the knives is simple work which focuses on cutting ability, edge retention, ergonomics and similar issues. The harder work I do which damages the knives is done on request from users and the makers who ask me to review their knives so it is hardly the case that this is an individual perspective I have.

If you are going to site people pointing out the problems with liner locks don't include me in the primary two, that should be Joe and Steve, both of them did the work long before I did with far more locks and Steve goes farther than I do with impacts. I have only used a small fraction of the folders those two guys have handled, especially high end ones.

And yes I have long since passed on liner/integrals for anything but light use, similar to what I would use a stockman. There are simply stronger and far more secure locks on the market.

Wrace said:
Can someone explain what exactly happens within the liner-lock system when there is a failure please?
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There are a couple of methods of failure, the most common one is that the liner just disengages exactly the same as if you unlocked it intentionally. More rare it actually breaks due to shear forces on the face when the engagement is only partial. Some of them are more sensitive than others, some you can just tap on your open palm and the lock folds, or just pinch the blade in your fingers and twist the handle and it again unlocks.

Some of the better ones I have see will handle spine impacts well (at the point where the forces would break the lock/blade) and require significant wrist torque to unlock (split a piece of birch flooring). However the problem is that they grow unstable with use. I saw recently a very solid lock turn completely useless after a few months. It got to the point where a light pop on the hand would fold up the lock readily and as soon as the blade was torqued the lock moved immediately.

So even if the folder is solid initially don't take this to mean it will always be this way, stop and check it at fairly regular inteverals, all locks of course not just liner/integrals.

-Cliff
 
Actions speak louder than words Cliff. You like it and you know it. Otherwise you wouldn't have been doing it this long. There is nothing exaggerated or nonsensical about it.
 
Wrace said:
Can someone explain what exactly happens within the liner-lock system when there is a failure please? Does that lock tab slip to the side of the blade base during a failure?

The only liner-lock's I'm familiar with are on my M18 and prowler.

Thanks
Wayne
Click to expand...

I can give you my own theory and experiences....

First is as Cliff said, sometimes a liner lock can be disengaged accidentally just by handling and horsing it a bit, mainly ones that are large and easily accessible such as the Spydie Military. I personally haven't experienced this. For the most part I think you'd have to use a pretty unusual grip or horse it pretty hard to make this happen.

Secondly, and my most common cause is simple wear. When you have a thin piece of titanium that engages a piece of steel every single day, time after time,day after day and year after year something is going to give eventually, and I believe that's usually the titanium liner.

Third is simple factory defect. Happens with any knife. I've had REKAT Rolling locks fails, as well as the lock on a Spyderco Chinook. It simply happens with production knives.

STR- I realize you and Cliff are having your words, and that's fine and dandy, but you're sounding pretty darn confrontational about most anybody whose had poor luck with liner locks?:confused: Not sure if it's just inflection and subtle speech nuances not coming through in text, or if I'm spotting a bit of irony in contrast to your sig line?
 
STR said:
You like it and you know it.
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Actually I don't enjoy a lot of it, I also do a lot of reviews I know are going to be nothing but a complete hassle. There are lots of reasons I do it, enjoyment often isn't the primary one. The rope cutting with triple sharpness testing, I have even took a break for about a year of doing to any extent as it is so time consuming.

It takes about a half an hour to do one run, you need about six runs to get a stable average, and you want a few finishes and angles to really benchmark the optimal performance which comes out to about 8-12 hours of solid rope cutting for just one knife, and about 10k rope cuts. I actually filled a garbage bag full of hemp shreds last year during one session over the period of a couple of weeks.

As noted your statement is highly exaggerated because damaging the knives with extreme use isn't the major focus of the reviews, it is constantly requested by makers and users, and I still get asked to review blades on a regular basis, and I am fairly clear about how the reviews will be performed.

Now on some knives it is fairly important, if I review a knife labeled as tactical which is promoted for prying, chopping, digging, etc., then yes it is kind of obvious it won't be limited to light work. Many of the blades which are designed otherwise are often used well beyond their limits, this usually isn't to rate or review the knife but to explore the limits of the steel.

Alvin's paring knife for example was used fairly harshly because I wanted to know at what point the edge would fail, how thin could I grind it and cut various materials so I did it and now I know. Alvin already knew of course as he already did it and he said so, but I checked what he said anyway.

-Cliff
 
I don't know...I can only speak what I feel here, and ever since I came to bladeforums, I kind of felt like people with positive opinions about liner locks were actively persecuted. Maybe not in active attacks, it just felt like no matter what I said or what I tested, it was out right irrelevent. I eventually decided that virtually everyone had decided that I was wrong, period, and there was nothing I could do to change that, so I gave up. Now I tell the new guys not to trust anyone, me included, on the subject, so they can test it for themselves. Because I'm confident that the vast majority will confirm what I think. I feel I get through here.....it's difficult to disagree with that statement.

I like Cliff a lot, I'm glad he's out there destroying knives for me. But we need to be honest here. You active go out there to destroy it. You do. You just do.

But I do my own testing. And I tested my M16 (and others did the same) much harder than I could possibly conceive using it in. Which is less than absolute 100% force, I admit. But it's not like I'm going to have an emergency situation where I have to crush bricks with the spine of my knife. But if you're willing to test it with one of your knives, I'm betting it could handle it.

I think STR is just speaking out of the frustrations that come with the feeling that you just can't get through to folks. I can relate here.
 
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