Liner locks fail???

Yeah and that reminds me I need to change that signiture line. Its getting old. Even still I feel I am tolerant to a point.

If I seem confrontational it is because I don't believe half of these reported failures are anything more than one side of the coin let alone that the knife or the design is at fault. I think it is operator error most of the time plain and simple. No different than putting some spaz behind the wheel of a Jeep CJ5. Some people are too spastic to be trusted to drive one without flipping it over. Others can drive one for all their lives and even use it hard with no problems or concerns.

If you or anyone else has had a problem with liner locks that is fine but don't make it out to be like the liner lock is truly the only thing at play in those failures. Lock backs, axis locks, frame locks, and all kinds of others fail also. Some people are hard on anything they put their hands on. Some are not hard on them at all but both can use them to the same degree to get a job done. I think like my dad did that there are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth. Most of the time we only hear one or the other but never all three.

If you and I were watching Cliff or Steve, or Joe do a test each of us would see and testify to something different as to what we saw after the test was completed. This is the same way for each of these claims of liner lock failures. That is what I mean when I say the tests mean very little in real world use of how well they hold up and function. Liner locks are big sellers in the knife industry and the custom market. I am here on this and many other forums everyday. I don't see a lot of mention of ER trips and failures or horror stories about it on a daily basis> do you?

My confrontational attitude is not solely directed at Cliff. It is at anyone that draws a conclusion or conclusions about something from an isolated subjective test done by someone that has already made up their mind about the outcome before the test began. Most of that is old hat around here and it is hard to tolerate.

Count it up as a senior moment for a cranky old fart I guess. Thats all I'm going to say about it.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Maybe not in active attacks, it just felt like no matter what I said or what I tested, it was out right irrelevent.
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No, as Joe noted when you first started, he had already seen the exact same behavior you had described with various liner locks, he had also seen the opposite. I have not even seen Joe or Steve in fact state that the majority of the liner locks they have seen were highly unstable, Joe has just said that he has seen problems more common with that lock type than others in regards to specific tests he has done and had reported to him.

You active go out there to destroy it.
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At times yes, I intentionally load them until they fail, on occasions this is to the point of gross failure, this is really rare though, about 10% of the reviews end like that and the vast majority of them were done on request from the maker or user who donated the knivew to the review.

But it's not like I'm going to have an emergency situation where I have to crush bricks with the spine of my knife.
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Joe doesn't actually do anything close to this in evaluating lock security, his impacts are actually not that heavy, mainly fast and whippy, I only spine whack on wood, I don't think Steve does brick impacts either, but he does harder impacts to check for stability under a block as he has martial aspects in mind. I have started doing heavy batoning as of late mainly because Ritter has promoted his knives for it, and I have recently seen a few knives such as the Fulcrum which can take it.

But if you're willing to test it with one of your knives, I'm betting it could handle it.
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How much? I am willing to bet the manufacturer won't support those claims. I used a Point Guard and watch it become unstable under even light spine whacks and even the LAWKS system would not prevent the blade from closing.

-Cliff
 
I've never had a problem with a liner lock. The only times I've gotten them to fail is through stupidity (applying gobs of militec to the tang where the liner lock engages) and abuse (trying to make it fail through unrealistic testing). If you're that worried about lock failure, buy a fixed blade. All locks can fail. Period.
 
I have liner locks that haven't failed. Outdoor Edge, some other Benchmades and a couple of CRKTs too. I've had one lockback fail, BM Ascent.

Only cut I got from failure was from a CRKT Point Guard. Slicing carrots.

AFCK failed cutting up boxes. Mini AFCK failed under light fiddling. Defective liner.

It doesn't take extremes for a knife to fail.

Phil
 
I've had several lockbacks fail... including a benchmade. A cheapy linerlock I had failed due to an incorrect angle ground where the lock engages the back of the blade... a little work with a small file, and that one was cured.

I test my knvies now with a whack test and also a (probably terribly dangerous) test where I wrap the blade in a towel (many, many layers of towel), then hold blade in one hand, handle in the other, and manually try and defeat the lock. Haven't had any name-brand linerlocks fail that one.

I trust linerlocks over any other lock type. As long as the engaging angle is good, a failure should lead to a knife jammed open... which my fingers can live with.
 
I own three liner lock folders, none of them failed spine whack test. However in two of them, the engagement point between blade tang and the locking leaf would change if I push down the blade. In all of them if I push down the blade, the locking leaf would flex and bend visibly. All these are just not very confidence inspiring especially if you carry the folder with SD in mind. I personally would not buy liner lock again simply because there are more solid locking mechanisms available.
 
I think Cliff's critique of my post is along the lines of my problems with the liner lock discussions here.

I don't get it.

Why doesn't anyone ever say anything like "Well, AM did some tests on mid priced liner locks, and then he had these other guys do it, and this is what he found." No one ever cites them. I specifically did every test you guys wanted me to and when it was claimed that my one knife was just an exception, I had other guys do it.

So it's as if it never happened. Positive evidence to the contrary of popular thought just disappears altogether. Honestly, I don't really care that much, I really did it out of concern (and some level of disbelief) for my own knives, and now I can genuinely know, for sure, really truly, that at least my liner locks are very trust worthy. And no amount of arguing to the contrary can change it. No one's going to convince me. Not now. Not after I did the testing my self, to my satisfaction.

I think this is all I've got to say on the issue...I imagine someone will break this post down by tomorrow and critique what I'm saying here, but honest, I just want to say what I think and leave it alone. People have different opinions, I'm okay with that, and I'm not going to convince any veteran here, and I'm okay with that too. So let's just agree to disagree and let the record stand that there are mixed feelings about liner locks.
 
Wow, my apologies, I didn't realize that this would be such a big can of worms. Maybe next I should start a thread entitled, "Sebenza... is it really worth the money?" Just kidding, but I do appreciate the input. I guess the only way for me to really be sure about any of this is to get a decent liner lock of my own and put it through my own series of tests.

One thing that I am curious about, however, is if liner locks are so prone to failure by their very nature, then why do so many high end makers still use them? Are they ignorant to the situation? Do the folks at Al Mar, Emerson, and Benchmade falsely believe that their liner lock knives are strong? Although I am admittedly ignorant about knifemaking, it seems to me that a frame lock wouldn't be much more difficult to make or much more expensive to make than a liner lock, so if the nature of a frame lock is so superior to that of a liner, then why are there so many high end liner locks still available? Just a thought.
 
I carryed two linerlocks. A Gerber Fred Carter Utility II, and it failed miserably, then I changed to a Camillus Cuda, which is now survived nearly two years of abuse just fine. Never closed on me. Solid as a vault, and I use it very hard. In general I think a properly executed linerlock can be as strong as any folder.
 
Most liner locks I've fooled with seem plenty strong...even my el cheapo Paraframe,but I will pass this to you:watch the Zytel scaled liners,those things seem made to fail! :eek: I've got a CRKT Point Guard and wouldn't trust that f*#%ing thing with any sort of use! I also have a Buck Crosslock and while it'll fail with a light whack it's ok...why? well it's a gent's knife,not what I wanted so meh,I miss chose.

The CRKT is supposed to be a "tac knife" so it's failing is unacceptable :grumpy:
 
MrPres said:
I guess the only way for me to really be sure about any of this is to get a decent liner lock of my own and put it through my own series of tests.
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Sign up for the pass around on the Rat Trap and check it out, it is my knife so do whatever tests you want.

One thing that I am curious about, however, is if liner locks are so prone to failure by their very nature, then why do so many high end makers still use them? Are they ignorant to the situation?
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Many feel spine whacks, white knuckle, and torque testing is all abusive and thus it isn't a negative when the knives fail them.

Although I am admittedly ignorant about knifemaking, it seems to me that a frame lock wouldn't be much more difficult to make or much more expensive to make than a liner lock, so if the nature of a frame lock is so superior to that of a liner, then why are there so many high end liner locks still available? Just a thought.
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It isn't significantly superior, it has the same problems and modes of failure. Frame locks are just in general on higher end knives so they have less problems.

Redguy said:
In general I think a properly executed linerlock can be as strong as any folder.
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Strength isn't the issue, rarely do the liners actually break. Properly executed it can be very secure as well, it just seems to be fairly difficult to do so apparently.

Artfully Martial said:
Positive evidence to the contrary of popular thought just disappears altogether.
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Here is a version of the FAQ on liner lock tests which Joe Talmade wrote many years ago :

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/articles/liner_lock_tests.html

Note specifically :

"Keep in mind that many of the factory knives easily pass all the tests below, while many knives from custom makers -- including those lauded in the knife rags -- often don't pass."

Since you missed it the first time you brought it up in your origional thread where Joe commented directly, and again here, I'll repeat it again. No one is ignoring what you said, Joe already said the *SAME* thing himself.

He has evaluated liner locks which pass all the tests he does for strength/security. He noted it on line, he *INCLUDED* this directly in the FAQ which has been cross posted everywhere.

I even specifically recall him doing a report from a custom show where he talked about a line of slim gentlemans folders, liner locks which were very secure even when stressed to the point the thin liners were buckeling.

Note further down in the FAQ :

"Test your knives, don't assume the more expensive knife has the more secure lock-up!"

He doesn't argue that everyone should write off the lock, and further :

"You can decide for yourself how secure you think the lock should be."

He isn't arguing for any uniform standard based on his preference, just describing his, letting you know the types of problems he has seen, how you can check them if it is reasonable that in your use they are likely to be experienced.

I carry lots of liner locks and use them all the time, I also don't cut myself with them on a regular basis because I have evaluated the lock security and since I know what it takes to unlock them I simply don't do that type of cutting with them.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Sign up for the pass around on the Rat Trap and check it out, it is my knife so do whatever tests you want.
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Thank you I think I will next time it goes out. I've been wanting to check out one of those anyway.
 
I've had the following liner locks fail:

2 CRKT KFFs
2 CRKT Point Guards
2 Spyderco Militarys

The two recent Military failures have convinced me to stop buying liner locks. I halfway expected the CRKT knives to fail, but not the Spydercos. I'm at the point where I'm considering no longer carrying folders, but fixed blades instead. It seems like the simplest and most effective solution to the problem. Plus, good fixed blades are generally cheaper.
 
If you can carry a fixed blade it is usually a directly better option, the one reason to carry a folding knife is because a fixed blade isn't practical to carry. That being said just because liner locks are prone to unintentional release doesn't mean you should write off all lock types. There are far more secure locks types on the market.

-Cliff
 
That Point Guard sure got mentioned a lot as problems with a liner lock.

What is it about that knife? It looks great. Is it a flaw in transitioning from the hand made to the production version?

Phil
 
Lower cost knives in general tend to have more fit/finish problems and it doesn't take much to make a liner lock very unstable. I have a Kershaw Vapor which is one of the better liners/integrals I have seen, however you do some checking and you turn up problems with the locks readily. I sent a Point Guard back in months ago due to lock issues, no word on it from customer service either way. If it ever does come up, I'll pass around it because the LAWKS idea is a decent one, though CRK&T's implementation is lacking as it is made from really weak steel assuming the one I had was representative.

-Cliff
 
I think one should just view a liner lock as a safety feature that makes the knife easier to use than one with no lock at all. With the right kind of use, any lock can be made to fail. With normal use of the knife, the locks perform their purpose, that of adding safety to the use of the knife, pretty well.

Certainly, some locks are stronger than others. There is usually some added weight that comes with that strength. Fixed blades, of course, don't have or need locks but they don't fit very conveniently in the pocket. There are tradeoffs with almost everything in life in addition to knife locks.

I think the user just needs to weigh those tradeoffs and choose a product with the tradeoffs that are most favorable for the application. I happen to like locking folders that are on the small and light side. I don't use folding knives very hard and I don't view them as a weapon, but rather as a tool. So liner locks are usually a pretty good choice for me. For someone else they are a poor choice. If one lock were best in every respect, then all locking folders would have the same lock.
 
phatch said:
That Point Guard sure got mentioned a lot as problems with a liner lock.

What is it about that knife? It looks great. Is it a flaw in transitioning from the hand made to the production version?

Phil
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It has Zytel scales combined with real thin stainless liners..the thing is "squishy" I know no other way to put it,you can compress the damn handel by squeezing it! :eek: flex or twist it and the lock goes bye-bye (not that I ever tried) plus the lock on mine doesn't really go right..about maybe a quarter of it hangs off to one side...stick with CRKT's metal or G-10 scaled knives.
 
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