Liquid Fuel Stove for Winter?

[frediver]

Seva 123, there is a reason they are still made.
For melting snow I think I would make a hanging
candle stove, ie a bushbuddy style without the
inner draft holes.

 

[dartanyon]

Optimus Svea 123 :thumbup:
Optimus Nova :thumbup:
MSR Wisperlite
Primus Himalaya

 

[desmobob]

That sounds like what I'm looking for.

Given what you know of the Coleman's. Would you recommend the 533, the Feather, or the Exponent Multi?

I don't have any experience with the 533 or Multi-fuel models. My Coleman is a Feather 400 (older version of the 442), and I would recommend it, depending on your needs. For third-world travel you may want the capability of burning kero or diesel and the multi-fuel may be a better choice. I rarely leave the Adirondacks.

I noticed on the Coleman site that the stoves are made in China now. :grumpy:


Good luck with your choice,
desmobob

 

[kgd]

My apologies for being misleading desmobob . It's not complicated [for someone used to using them], but lighting a liquid fuel stove is more complicated than lighting an isobutane stove, hence why I said they're difficult to light [by comparison]. Isobutane stoves require no special attention, but they lack the performance in extreme cold.

The Coleman Feather is a liquid-fuel stove and therefore the same procedure is required though it's output is nearly 4000 BTUs less than the dragonfly so perhaps the "fireball" is less pronounced. I had a Coleman Peak 1 Apex II [same burner as the feather I believe], and the procedure was exactly the same in cold weather as any MSR. It was a great stove and at the time, it was the only stove that could simmer well [on the market], but I found it to be very fragile compared to MSR's offerings.

The "fireball" can and should be avoided. I'm not overstating "fireball" here - if you ignite the liquid fuel on a cold liquid-fuel stove, there's some serious flame action. If when cold [and I mean winter type cold], you turn the fuel valve to high on a liquid fuel stove, the burner fills with liquid fuel and will continue to pour liquid fuel out through the burner. This occurs because the evaporator tube is not hot, hence the fuel is a liquid, NOT a vapour. If you light this liquid fuel it ignites into a big-ass flame - "fireball". The PROPER way to light a liquid fuel stove is to prime it using [flammable paste - which I've never used] or what I do [after pressurizing the tank], allow a small amount of fuel to enter the burner, close the valve, ignite, then slowly open the valve and the flame should simmer down relatively quickly. This is not a problem in warm weather, but in cold weather, these stoves [MSR, Coleman ... etc.] need to be primed ... i.e. the evaporator tube needs to be hot for proper operation.

Your second way is the manufacturer's directions at least what came with my whisperlite. I've never heard of the paste method, but that sounds good also and I think I'm going to experiment on that! Smear a little bit of the stuff on fuel vaporizer and light it. That makes a tonne sense. I wonder if hand-sanitizer will work

I think the big issue here is simply learning to use the stove before operating it. For people who are used to the propane stoves (which suck in a tremendous fashion in winter) the need to warm the fuel nozzle is a step you have to take where you wouldn't be familiar with in a turn the valve and light design. With the MSR's this is built right into the design and I have found that the stove needs to have this done even in the summer for proper operation. It takes about 20 s to do in summer, but may need 1 minute or so when it is very cold.

I guess you can look at it as a bit of a pain in the butt, but then that is part of the design and that is why it is so useful under extreme cold. That and it puts out a tonne of heat at 11K BTU, so in the end you get your boiled water faster. Another nice thing about these set-ups is your ability to have another fuel canister set to go. I keep two of them, and bought an extra pump system for my spare fuel. If you ever have that annoying BBQ-law happen (fuel runs out half way through dinner), it is very easy to switch out fuel tanks on the fly. Of course you will get flame interruption doing this. But it takes only 10 s or so to do.

 

[kr1]

Before the paste method, with the MSR stoves you can get away with just letting a little fuel run into the priming area and light it. Should just get a small flame. You then keep coaxing that by adding a little more fuel as needed to keep the flame going and at some point it will start to vaporize the fuel in the tube and you start running it like a stove. This works well with a little coaxing on the MSR and Apex stoves because the vaporizing tube runs through the flame and it makes this process pretty efficient. As I remember the 123 isn't designed that way and makes it a little more difficult to light in cold weather. The only stoves that I have owned that were liquid fuel stoves that could simmer were the dragonfly and the Apex. Most of the white gas stoves were made to melt snow so they had two settings. Off and try to melt the pan. The propane and isobutane stoves are great at simmering and easy to light but they start getting very inefficient as the temperature starts to drop.

KR

 

[kage]

I own quite a few stoves, mostly for mountain guiding. For liquid fuel stoves I have multiple MSR Whisperlite (white gas only) and Whisperlite Internationale 600s (white gas, unleaded and kerosene), a couple of the old style MSR XGKs (everything including jet fuel, except propane/butane cannisters), a MSR Dragonfly (same as the XGK, but with a lot more moving parts and more fragile, but it can simmer beautifully. Broke one the first time I parachuted with it), a Primus multi-fuel (burns everything and I think it's still the only stove that also burns cannisters). For cannister stoves I have a MSR Pocket Rocket, Brunton Optimus, Snow Peak Ti, and a Coleman Ultralite.

There are ways that you can modify cannister stoves to work in sub-zero temps, but they're potentially dangerous and could cause a nasty explosion, so I won't go into details here. When I was doing mostly mountaineering and stuck in basecamps I preferred the white gas stoves because weight was not as much of an issue and I would be melting several gallons of water at a time. When I was doing alpine I used cannister stoves exclusively and have used them to about -40F weather, so it can be done, but you need to know what you're doing. Almost every professional alpinist out there uses cannister stoves for their ease of use, light weight, cleanliness (no soot), and ease of hanging in your tent without having to worry about a fireball when priming a liquid fuel stove.

I basically only use cannister stoves now and reserve my multi fuel stoves for SHTF scenarios. They're lighter for longer trips than white gas, due to their fuel efficiency (check out some of the info at Backpackinglight.com to confirm this), they're super fast and easy to use, they don't leave nasty soot over everything, they're small and compact, and they're much quieter than white gas stoves. In sub-freezing temps you may have to keep the cannister in your jacket until you're ready to use it. You can also use a disposable hand warmer...I use a folding stove stand that attaches to the bottom of the cannister and it holds a round shaped Heat Solution reusable hand warmer perfectly.

If I were looking for a white gas stove to just melt snow I would look long and hard at the MSR Simmerlite. It would be my first pick for this application. I've never used it but the reviews are good and I believe it's still the lightest white gas stove available.