Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes

Originally posted by R.W.Clark
I will let the photos tell the rest of the story. After seeing the photos I do not think anyone will questions LM1s "brittleness", edge holding, or abrasion resistance.

Special note. Do not think that I over built this knife as is sometimes done to hype a material. I under built this knife on purpose. It is only 1/8" stock.

Link to photos


Also Jason was in my shop when I was throwing this stuff as hard as I could against the concrete floor. The LM1 showed no signs of damage but my shop floor is a little worse for wear.
Click to expand...

Looks like the edge faired better than the spine. In the quarter-cutting picture, the spine of the blade looks like it has some serious dings in it. Although, it looks like you're smacking it around with a steel hammer, which tends to do a number on any knife material, eh? ;)
 
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It is to the credit of Mr. Clark and everyone involved that they are not rushing into production with Liquid Metal knives. We develop new materials, such as Talonite, and we work with manufacturing companies, such as Camillus, that want to use new materials. We went through the development of a new knife material. It took us a couple years before Rob Simonich and then others figured out how to use a new material to make truly excellent knives. Going from handmade to production, as Camillus did, took an additional couple years.

New stuff is different. You cannot take something new and use old values to measure it. Those who are adequately trained in material, science, engineering, manufacturing or similar hear lots of stories such as the story of the first successful iron bridge.

The first successful iron bridge (coalbrookdale) came only after attempts to build iron bridges had failed. (Failure in bridge building is easy to ascertain. Does it fall down or doesn’t it.) Even after the successful first cast iron bridge there were still cast iron bridges that failed and were replaced with wood. Part of the problem was that they tried to use cast iron as they had wood simply because they didn’t know any better way to do it.

You cannot take values for wood and apply them 100% to cast iron. You cannot take values for steel and apply them 100% to liquid metal.

Tom Walz

P.s. In case it isn’t clear, it is the official position of Talonite that no material is superior to another but that each material has unique properties and needs to be used according to those properties.
 
Ron your feet REALLY got held to the fire here man... Those first test pics were taken at my shop, and we have been messing with this for a while now, BUT LM1 is Rons baby..
I have seen the stuff work, and was very impressed.. Now that Ron has done the direct head to head test with Talonite we should have a better understanding of the material also..
Its not gonna be the next CPM 3V, but just like Talonite it could have a home in the cutlery industry..
If you look at those first test pics, just picture me behind the camera having WAY too many beers, and causing trouble while Ron did all the work.HA!

Well I DID cut the HELL out of my finger, and cut up the cans, so I wasnt a total waste of space;)
 
Ron,
Any guess-timated idea how many may attend this "knife-bash" on the 25th??? I may have something to show you too, in S-5. :cool:
 
Well, we are seeing a real Who's Who showing up here. Lots of names I know by reputation and lots of good info. I'm reserving my opinion until the 25th when I can visit Mr. Clark's shop and get a good look and "hands on" for myself. But I would be lying if I didn't say that with all the info coming from such "reliable sources" I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

I was hoping that other Forum Members in the Southern California area might be able to join in on the fun but to date I've not heard or seen a post from anyone else indicating they wish to join. I plan to bring some stuff to be cut up with me and, if Mr. Clark agrees, my camera. I'll also bring a knife or two with me to compare edge retention. R.W. has offered to allow us to BBQ if there is enough interest, I hope we can spark that kind of interest. What could be better than spending a few hours Eating, Drinking, Talking, Cutting and generally being Merry? How often are end-users offered the opportunity to test out new products in such an open environment?

Before we get into the "My Super Knife Steel" is better than "Your Super Knife Steel" (No offence intended. I'm not talking about Manufactures and Makers, they usually know enough to avoid this.) lets all take a deep breath. I don't believe that there is one wonder steel that will do everything for everyone. Sure there are plenty of great options out there and each has strong points but they also have weak points that we learn to live with. The answer is to first identify the tasks you are asking your knife to perform and then choose the material that best fits the tasks. I think that there is plenty of room for more options in blade steels and I look forward to trying this new product out.

EDIT : Epsilon, just saw your post. Glad to see I might not be the only person there. I'd hate to interupt R.W. workday all by myself.
 
Trace, I was wondering how long you were going to let me go on all by myself:D. (BTW just picked up a Tapmatic :p). Trace actually did work hard during this video, unfortunally it was being busy spilling beer on the bumber of my truck;).

Rockspider, you got me. All I know is that it somehow interfears with the field created by the sensors. There is alot about this stuff I just do not understand fully. But it is completely non-magnetic.

Jason, I havn't the faintest clue as to how many might show up. The only one that I know for sure is WTFOver. Feel free to come on by and bring that S5 I would like to see it. I do know that I am having steak for lunch though!

WTFOver, feel free to bring your camera. But when the dancing girls show up you will have to put it away:D.

Don't get the wrong idea here. There is no "pissing match" going on. Tom was nice enough to call me this morning. We had a very nice conversation about applications and what not. There is NO ill will or bad blood anywhere around the issue. They are simply two seperate materials for similar jobs, no big deal. One is not going to replace the other. There is plenty of room in the industry for all types of materials. Heck look at how many differant carbon and stainless steels there are.

And, like Trace said, this is not the end all be all of knife materials. When it comes to hard ass killem all let God sortem out type knives, you just can't beat good ol steel (be it 3V, S30V, A2 and others). But, IMHO I think that LM1 will hold its own agaist many steels.

Cutting the quarter did nothing to the edge, but you are right, we beat the heck out of the spine. It could have had something to do with that big ol hammer I was wacking it with.

Here is a photo of Trace trying to break the tip of the knife off. And I do mean TRYING. He had me wincing a couple times. The stuff he was doing SHOULD have destroyed the point. But it came out with no damage at all.
 

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On any side by side cutting tests performed, I'd be very interested to see not only documented results, but also thorough descriptions of the knives used - particularly with respect to blade shape, edge profile, and thickness - that we may observe some of the other variables that will affect the observed results. Of all the different variables out there, materials are but one. If the focus is on materials specifically, then it makes sense to try to eliminate, or at the very least try to quantify the other variables involved. Edge profile is a big one.

I'm sure this has already been considered, but I thought it was worth emphasizing nonetheless.

I look forward to seeing the results. Initial impressions suggest this material could have a lot of potential in the field of cutlery. Those who have invested time, effort, and personal resources into the research of this material deserve the recognition and gratitude of everyone else who may benefit from the knowledge gained.

Keep up the good work! :)
 
R.W. : I didn't think we had reached the "pissing contest" stage yet but was just trying to slow things down a bit. When the "tempo of operations" picks up on threads like this, they can get "off topic" and "personal" real quick. It's a long way to 01/25/03 and if things "go south" it might be difficult to get people together to objectively look at this as a possible new material and not as "I'm going to prove why this stuff is crap." It is purely for selfish reasons that I made the comments, I don't want this to get to the "pissing contest" stage before I get a chance on the 25th to check this out. I am hoping that we will see some posts from people that get to see this material in Las Vegas later and the information flow will continue with out personal attacks. While I don't know JACK about making knives... I know that I enjoy using them and talking about them and learning about them. This sounded like an opportunity to do all of that.

Hmmmm Dancing Girls...

Wulf : Point well taken. Side by side comparisons should have thorough descriptions of the knives used, and while edge profile is a big factor in the performance of a knife I wouldn't think that they need to match. R.W. and others have the experience with this material and have had time to try various settings and found the edge profile that works best for them for this material. As I understand it he was working with 1/8" stock and flat ground the blade putting a 17 Deg primary edge. Other Makers using other materials have found the edge profile that works best for them. Due to differences in the material used, it might be a more "Un-fair test" if we tried to match the edge profiles. I own mostly folders and for fixed blades tend to lean towards large and heavy blades. Of the fixed blades I own, the only one that would seem to match closely, would be my Busse Active Duty. While it has a convex edge, it is only .150" thick and has a relatively small 3.5" blade. All of the other fixed blades I own are 3/16", 1/4", and 5/16" stock and I think it would not be fair to use them for a comparison. I'm sure others will have a knife or two to test and R.W. will I'm sure have one or two. So we should get a good deal of info if we get a few people to join in.
 
Don't know if the is the proper place to reply but I will be there. Corona is about 25 mi from my house. If anyone from the north Orange County area wants to carpool lend me email at kamkazmoto@yahoo.com

Gary
 
If liquid metal is going to be tested against other materials then as many variables should be removed as possible. Knives that are as alike as possible should be made from each of the materials. Each of the materials that need to be heat treated should have this done optimally. Of course this is only necessary after basic testing is completed and the real serious stuff begins.
 
Good God this thread is huge. Don't think its beaten the "no soul" thread though. :p
 
R.W.

Your comments about the need for breathing protection when grinding and it's suitability for molding cause me to believe that Liquid Metal might be better suited for use by manufacturers than Custom Makers.

What are your thoughts?
 
Mr. Clark,

I'd love to stop by on the 25th with WTFOver and Epsilon to see the goods! I can bring a diamond DLC Simonich Mid-tech Crowfoot that's nearly factory-sharp and a Fallkniven WM1 that I've resharpened. You can use them for whatever edge-retention tests you want, but only if you promise to sharpen the Crowfoot for me afterwards ;) (I'm much better at convex edges).

Personally I would love to see LM made into some sort of wire or conductor; the problem is that soldering would be tricky, unless cold-weld techniques are used. And we don't know if it's a fire risk involved like aluminum wires.

I look forward to meeting you guys....
 
OH BOY, where do I start on this one?!

Amoung several other meetings this morning (and a new crown tooth, busy morning), I met with the Director of R+D for LMT and the VP of Marketing for LMT. So......

Well, I guess I can start with some answers to lingering questions.

First, as to the issue of LM1 knives dulling without use. This is not the case. As was stated earlier, this would be caused by surface tension built up in the material, such as with regular glass. According to R+D LM1 does not have any tension in its structure. It is almost 100% at rest. The slight amount of movement is from compression. So auto dulling will not occur. This has been proved in real world testing with the surgical scapels.

Second is the issue of nonmagnetic anti theft strips. I blew this one. Come to find out it is not LM1 that is used in these devices. It is an earlier amorphus (sp?) metal that was magnetic. While LM1 will activate metal detectors and Magnetomitors it can not be changed as in the case with the earlier material. So that answers that question.

Why so many meetings today? Well, the meetings with the big boys from LM1 was due to the second meeting of the day. That meeting was an interview with Blade Magazine. Blade will be featuring a detailed article on myself and Liquid Metal. It will be featured in the May edition which is due the first of March.

Now for the REALLY good news. The VP came over bearing a big gift (well not a gift, they will bill me later:(). That gift was a large stack of LM1 plate material. Along with the plate came the official Go Ahead to begin production for sale to the public!

The first LM1 blades will go on sale to the public on Feb 21 at Expo '03 in Buena Park, CA. No knives will go on sale until that time. I am however accepting a limited amount pre-sale orders for those who are unable to make it to the show.

Edited Commercial content from post (gus)

Also Liquid Metal Technologies was just awarded Industryweek's 10th annual Technology and Innovation Awards for LM1! This is a big award from a huge source (INDUSTRYWEEK MAGAZINE).

I have to go into a coma now. I have not slept since 9am yesterday.
 
Hello all,

Tim Herman here. I have been watching this thread in custom forum from the very start and wondered why on earthy supermod blues hasnt moved or deleted this thread yet??? A maker posting pics of his own knives in custom was taboo when I did it then got banned!

R.W. Clark posts pics on here in an outright advertisement and where are the damn supermods now??? Seem a bit one sided to anyone but me?? Or does blues own some Clark knives too like the Dan Farr thing??? So that myust make it ok for him to post pics AND prices in a huge ad!!!

Well all I am glad I got banned from bfc and with this am sure to get banned again but I will still try to show this lame one way street crap that only applies to some members. I may come off as a grouch at times but with the many times I have been crapped on on this forum, wouldnt you?? I have helped any maker that asks me a question on anything I know, I have no secrets. Am I the only one that sees this one way crap? I can see why nobody stands up with me cuz they'd get banned too!

To all the mods here, if you cant be fair to everyone then dont be mods at all. I am sure this account will be banned pretty damn fast too but I expect that.

(Abusive and personal content edited out by Blues. Rest of post left as is.)
 
That's interesting -- look at the timestamps. It was six hours after the moderators took action that Tim spammed his complaint that the moderators hadn't taken any action all over all the forums. :rolleyes:
 
Cougar Allen,
it was only 2 1/2 hours after the moderator took action that Tim spammed his complaint that the moderators hadn't taken any action all over all the forums.

However you are correct he has an ax and I hear a grinder. Mods took action but he was not happy. Maybe the only action he would have accepted was if they had banned him. R.W. sounded like he was caught up in a wave of excitement and not trying to break or even bend any rules.

Good Call by the Mods...
Bad Call by the Troll
 
How can the last 2 comments by Cougar or WRFOver do anything in this thread? WT I can excuse but pretty lame for a Supermod.
 
db,

You are correct. I should not have jumped in. Sorry. I posted mostly to indicate support R.W. He is more than capable of defending himself and I should have "Held my tongue".

I would edit my last post but by doing that your post would not make sense to others reading this later.
 
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