Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes

Nice collection of links for technical review.

Kit/Rob - wouldn't anodizing the stuff and then coating it be good for decorative purposes ?:p
 
Good show Ron and nice effort as well. At Spyderco, we have a CATRA edge tester that is always in use. We would be happy to fetch a sample (US or FEDX pick up), test it and send back with the CATRA graphs, compared to CPMS30V, or any other steel (we have much data) and send it back to you onite.

We're curious as well.

sal
 
Now this could be interesting... If Sal gets involved and likes what he sees we could see some neat data now and maybe some neat products in the future. He has ALL the fancy tools and testers. I think that the "Near-net Shape Fabrication" of cast blades would be something that Spyderco would be very interested in. No more boxes of "Spyder-Holes" left over after laser cutting the hole in the blade blanks. Many of Spyderco's knives are great for Boating/Diving/Sailing/Fishing use and would greatly benefit from the corrosion proof properties of this material. They also have the funds to maybe take this to the next level for "Production" knives. We have focused attention on the "Custom Works" possiblities and I'm sure that there will be many. But if a "Production Knife" maker with sufficent funding were to move forward with this we might see some great work and speed up the development cycle.
 
I was reading through this PDF:

Liquid Metal Overview

and it seemed to me that the characteristics that make Liquid Metal attractive as a gold club would also make it really attractive as a sword or axe material, specifically "the high energy-storage characteristics, low sound velocity, and good acoustic damping."

Anyone have enough of a metallurgical background to explain those attributes in terms of what makes a good axe or sword blade?
 
Dr. Hufnagel is one of the leading researchers in amorphous metals. My mail to him is at the bottom.

From: Todd Hufnagel [mailto:hufnagel@jhu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:46 AM
To: Gabe Newell
Subject: Re: Amorphous metallic alloys and blade design


Gabe,

It is true that metallic glasses are, in some ways, easier to
manufacture than conventional, crystalline alloys (such as steel).
Primarily, this is because a metallic glass will soften and flow
above its glass transition temperature (instead of simply melting),
much like an ordinary silicate glass. If you've ever seen glass
blowing done, you've got the idea. This property helps in some kinds
of processing; for instance, it is easier to mold a metallic glass
into a complex shape with thin sections. A good example is the recent
commercialization of metallic glasses for making cell phone cases,
which have sections less than a millimeter in thickness.

The fact that you can easily soften the metallic glass may allow you
to form knife blades more easily and cheaply that may be possible by,
say forging. Although I am not an expert on the economics, my guess
is that this would not affect the end price very much, as I suspect
that the cost of forging the blade is a relatively small part of the
total.

Metallic glasses do have some appealing properties for knife blades;
most importantly, they are very hard. Often, people claim that this
means they are also wear resistant, but this is not necessarily true,
and the limited wear data that I have seen suggests that they are not
much (if any) better than conventional crystalline alloys of the same
composition. (To be honest, I have no idea how they compare to
materials currently used in knife blades.) My guess is that they
would take an edge pretty well, and I do know that the leading
manufacturer (Liquidmetal Technologies), has been making surgical
implements out of metallic glasses for this reason (the improved
processing certainly helps here, as well).

There are some potential drawbacks to metallic glasses. In
particular, they are not especially tough compared to conventional
alloys (although not nearly so bad as ceramics in this regard). They
have limited tensile ductility, but I would not think that this is a
big problem for knives. In the case of an axe head, I would worry a
bit about what would happen if the axe head struck a hard object,
like a rock, and I would certainly want to do some testing along
these lines.

I am not enough of an expert on the acoustical side of things to say
whether metallic glasses have an advantage in this regard or not.
Like you, I have heard that they have good acoustical damping
properties, but I really don't know how much this matters.

I hope these comments are useful. Feel free to distribute them as you
see fit, so long as they are attributed to me and are distributed in
their entirety.

Regards,

Todd Hufnagel




>Dr. Hufnagel,
>
>A number of makers of high-end custom knifes have begun to experiment with
>using amorphous metallic alloys (e.g. R. W. Campbell, chairman of the
>California Knife Makers Association). This continues a tradition of
>experimentation with a wide variety of stainless, high carbon, and tool
>steels, chromium-cobalt alloys, and ceramics by the community.
>
>There's a lively discussion going on among knife manufacturers on the
>eventual impact of bulk metallic glasses. How "real" are the claims of
>improved manufacturability of these alloys versus traditional steels, and
>what impact will that have on the industrial design of their products? Will
>the high energy-storage, low sound-velocity, and good acoustic damping of
>amorphous metals translate into benefits for high-impact blades like axe
>heads?
>
>Given your research focus, I was wondering what thoughts you had about the
>utility of these materials in blade production, and if I could distribute
>your comments publicly?
>
>Gabe Newell


--

Todd C. Hufnagel
Associate Professor
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Johns Hopkins University
102 Maryland Hall
3400 North Charles Street
Baltimore, MD 21218-2681

Voice: (410) 516-6277
Fax: (410) 516-5293
Email: hufnagel@jhu.edu
http://www.jhu.edu/~matsci/people/faculty/hufnagel/hufnagel.html
 
I asked another metallic glass researcher to read through this thread and comment. He has asked to remain anonymous.

==================================================
Interesting, it looks like the prototypes are working well. I give you some comments, but please do not use my name. I do not want to get bothered. If you bother me more often than once a month I veto the originating adress.

The comment on possibility of heat treating is irrelevant, the material comes heat treated.

The main issue is that the material is so elastic that it will not shatter like some hardened steels do. and if you bring it to the limit it actually goes plastic (then cracks), somewhat like maraging steel, in fact I read a report in your reference. Actually we are studying glassy metals as a replacement for maraging steel. Of course we do not necessarily plan to use LM1, other more advanced alloys may be used. I suspect that the larger elasticity (2%) lots better than any steel, that break well below 1% (maraging gets about there, all other are worse) makes it better as a blade's material.

This makes that at equal hardness the material is effectively much stronger than steel for blades and the sharpness lasts longer (it takes a stronger effort to plastically modify the edge. This is the same reason (one of) that it makes it interesting for penetrators.

Electric conductivity is poor 0.19 to 0.2 mOhms/cm, electrons have to diffuse. At low temperature it becomes superconductive.

A mold to make blades costs 10 to 20K$, probably closer to 10 because the blade is simple, but then the machining disappear and you can even get pre-embossed logos and you recoup much of the expense rapidly. You can make thousands of blades.

An important warning. Some glassy metals contain Beryllium. Please check that you got the Beryllium free material, otherwise dusts from grinding it are easily lethal.

Other materials will follow, but for now are classified. With these you may be able to make thicker parts, like axes.

Good luck,
 
Wow, somebody has been doing thier homework!

A quick update on the Sat open house. It looks like a couple of the LMT folks will be joining us. Both the Director of R+D and the head of the "Sporting/Liesure Product Developement Team" are planning on attending for some Q+A as well as some show and tell (they might bring along a box of goodies showing the range of LM1s production abilities). It is a great chance for you guys to get the answers directly from the guys who have all the answers. Plus they want to see this stuff put through the paces by third parties.

Look forward to seeing all of you there.

Anyone planning on bringing cardboard?
 
More importantly, anyone bringing a digital camera? Or better yet, digital video?
 
Well,

I have an old Kodak DC280 2.1MP DigiCam that I can bring for some pictures. I'll stop and grab some cardboard but it sounds like there might be a few of us there so I'll bet we may need a few people to bring some.
 
I have both digital still and video. I am sure that there will be alot of images taken throughout the day.

I will pick up a few boxes myself, but after all the money I have put out so far I just can't afford to pick up a whole lot.

I don't know about you guys but I am getting pretty darn excited.

There will ge two LM1 knives availible for testing. The first is a Model 10 Camp/Hunter and the second is a Model 1 EDC. The Model 1 has already seen quite a bit of use opening bottles in Vegas ;).
 
Ron, good seeing you in Vegas! Which alloy are you testing, the LM1 or the LM2 or both? I will be looking for the pics and stuff! :)

I think I have a callus on my knuckle from opening beer bottles in Vegas. ;)

EDIT, never mind, I see they are the LM1 alloy..... :footinmou
 
Not wanting to be contentious, and certainly not wanting to downplay the hazards of grinding/welding with beryllium alloys, but the statement concerning Beryllium that, "dusts from grinding it are easily lethal", isn't exactly correct. Beryllium is a hazardous metal that has very low exposure limits for respirable dusts. That's respirable not inhalible. Respirable dusts are of a size that they get deeply into the lungs but are not so small as to be immediately exhaled before becoming lodged. While that exposure limit is low it is not so low as to result in a no safe exposure classification.

This doesn't mean that the material is safe to grind without taking precautions. Conservative calculations that I worked up indicate that the alloys from LM may still be hazardous and have enough Be in them to result in overexposure to an unprotected worker grinding them during an 8 hour shift.

The significant hazard associated with exposure to Be alloys is a condition called berylliosis. Berylliosis is an unpredictable problem as workers exposed to the same levels may or may not develop the condition and those that do may develop it to varying extents. Sensatisation to Be is a more common problem.

Grinding, heating to produce fumes, and other dust/fume producing activities should be controlled to limit the amount of material that the worker inhales. This is done with wet handling techniques, localized exhaust, and respiratory protection equipment. The Department of Energy has extensive experience with working Be and Be alloys and the health problems from improperly handling them and uses the first two approaches whenever possible backed up with air monitoring to verfy their effectiveness.

What's a knifemaker to do? Talk to the material manufacturer for advise on how to protect themselves using the equipment they have on hand. Limit exposure times. Make your own industrual exhaust system to carry the dusts away from you (be careful how you collect the dust and dispose of it). Use P95 or P100 respirators. Use covealls that you doff while still wearing the mask and then shower. Get the air in your shop checked (it's easy to pay the less than $100 to get the gear from a lab to check and analyze the air samples) to be sure that what you're doing is working. And on and on.
 
Hi Ron. thanx for all of your help.

Hi Hso, thanx for the info.

Regarding the casting, I think that injection molding is more accurate than casting. MIM (Metal injection molding) has been taken to a high art in the pst few years. I believe LM forming is more like the MIM process, but with very sophisticated cooling equipment.

sal
 
Gaben
Very informative link, the carbon nanotubes ceramic matrix sounds like it could be tailor made for knife blades,Without the toxic side efects of copper berillium.I wonder about the cost though? But three times as tough as regular ceramic,does that compair with high carbon stainless steels? Of course these are rhetorical questions but if you find out let us know
thanks:confused:
 
I'm waiting to hear back from Dr. Kuntz, who was one of the researchers involved. I'll post once I hear anything.

But what I really want to hear about was how things went down at Mr. Clark's LiquidMetal Cutathon '03.

Surely they have at least one picture they could post this evening.
 
The guys must be way too exhausted at this point:D.

I know that my arm hurts like the dickens.

All the photos were taken by Lauren and Mike, I am sure that they will be posting soon.

There were a total of 6 six people attending. That is much lower than the responce I had recieved, but oh well.

The day started off with a one hour question and answer session with the LMT reps. Mike was johny on the spot with a whole mess of questions. The LMT guys brought one of the golf club heads that was straight out of the mold. Every one was impressed that it was mirror finished out of the mold, myself included. There was alot of technical discussion and there was also a bit of discussion on planned future projects. It seems that LMT has decided that the testing and responce has been positive enough to put a bit more of there resources into the cutlery market. Which is great news considering that we have been on the back burner for quite some time. Plus they showed off a beautiful limited edition Colt Single Action Army that was fully engraved in classic style. It had nothing to do with LM1 but we still were all drooling.

As fas as the cutting is concerned. My shop now resembles a recycling business. We started out by piercing about two dozen holes in a paint can and then sliced the can in half. The tip showed zero damage but the edge was ever so slightly dulled. About four passes on the crock sticks and it was back in action. The guys chopped and chopped on a 2X4 until we could no longer lift the knife, but the knife showed no signs of dulling. We then spent the next several hours slicing up cardboard. Both knives never missed a beat and never showed signs of slowing. The guys have photos of the Model 10 chopping up a piece of cow leg bone. After about 3 minutes of chopping there was one micro fracture in the blade that was repaired in about 10 strokes on the sticks. Mike started taking slices out of a piece of brass bar with the Model 1. It cut well and only had a little micro edge rolling. He did the same with one of Traces Talonite Gambits and one of my O1 MAUs. The Talonite would not bite into the brass at all, but I don't think there was any more damage then with the LM1 blade. The O1 bit deep but ended up with some nasty edge fractures. The Model 1 was up and running in about four passes on the sticks. The last thing we did was hole digging with the tips. Everyone was waiting for the tip to brake off but it never showed any signs of damage. I ended up digging about 4-5 good sized holes in the 2X4. I know the Lourne got some photos of the tip being flexed out of wack. We cut both side walls out of the tire, but the steel belts beat us down. The edge was fully rolled after trying to cut in the belts. Heck those silly belts dulled a bi-metal hacksaw blade, so I did not feel too bad. However, even when we all said that the edge was toasted, it was still slicing the cardbord:confussed:. It should not have cut hot butter, but it was still kicking the cardboards butt. Trace was saying that the material seemed to be self healing. That has to have something to do the the band shearing properties, because it really did seem like the more we cut with that damaged edge the better it was slicing. All said, I think we easily put a years worth of normal service into those blades in one day.

After that we settled down for a nice BBQ. I think that poor Trace will be feeling those Hot Links for a few days!;). I was smart and stuck to the prime rib:D.

I will let the guys give there own feeling on the material, but I think everyone was very satisfied that the material did all that I said it can do and maybe a bit more. Some of the applications for the material that was put forward by the group was for EDC, hunting, diving, light camp, general kitchen and butchering. I look forward to hearing from the others in attendance. Other than that, I might have some up dated news after a board meeting that I have been requested to attend on Tuesday. This will be the first time that I have ever been requested to attend a meeting at LMT! Hope they don't want suit and tie:).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top