Little karabela project

[Jens Schuetz]

I have no clue how they are supposed to look but I like what you created.

 

[BladeScout]

The 1796 LC sword doesn't have a heavy point. It has a wide but very thin point (usually under 2mm). It's like a thin kitchen knife with a 30" handle (part of which is sharp).

Most swords that widen at the tip have very thin tips (originals, anyway - replicas are a different story). Seen in profile, the width suggests extra weight, but the cross-section says otherwise.

Well, the bunch of originals, that I have all have heavy points, as that was sort of the point (pun intended).

Its was meant for slashing and one can REALLY get some swing into it.

It was quit devastating if handled by by someone competent. Some armies bitched about it turning up on the battlefield, but countries eventually adopted it anyway, as it was very effective. This can be seen by the ones I have; different sources but all of the same general configuration i.e for example all with heavy point.

Of course one can debate how to define 'heavy point.' The point might thin out but retain weight. For example because of where the fuller ends and because of the fact that there is still some mass there - as you yourself said; the point is WIDE. Depending on where the different 1796 came from, there actually is a sort of more or less pronounced 'ridge' (for lack of better words) at the end of the blade.

Some 1796 were left unsharpened but for these last inches of blade, as the idea was to use the tip of the 1796, which would come down with a fierce blow.

This design is the 'raison d'etre' of the 1796. I dont know you from adam - but if you dont have a 1796 handy, just google the pattern and it will be seen in the pics.

BUT that is a debate for another thread, as this thread is about a custom sword of quite another type, so lets cut that tangent short now (yes, I brought it up in passing, I know).

Feel free to start a new thread in the sword forum on the subject.

 

[J W Bensinger]

I think we can probably agree on a fairly forward POB feeling like a heavy point-this sword balances @ maybe 1/3 of the OAL from the pommel, which certainly registers in the hand as point heavy.

 

[Timo Nieminen]

Well, the bunch of originals, that I have all have heavy points, as that was sort of the point (pun intended).

Not my experience with originals (only handled a couple of trooper's swords, all British - the Prussian version is beefier); I don't find that they feel point-heavy. I don't think there's enough steel in the tip to call them point heavy - less mass per inch past the fuller than a typical (modern) katana, and perhaps a little less per inch than some of its cut-and-thrust successors (e.g., the P1890 is about twice as thick halfway from end of fuller to tip, and over half the width). A heavy point compared to a smallsword, but I think the better comparison is with other sabres.

BUT that is a debate for another thread, as this thread is about a custom sword of quite another type, so lets cut that tangent short now (yes, I brought it up in passing, I know).

Both a cutting-oriented sabres with the wide tip often seen in cutting-oriented sabres. The 1796 derives from East European sabres, so Polish sabres like this are the type's uncles.

(A wide-tipped sword thread could be interesting. I don't have a trooper's sword to show (only a Yeomanry sword which doesn't widen at the tip), but do have some other types that widen.)

 

[Timo Nieminen]

I think we can probably agree on a fairly forward POB feeling like a heavy point-this sword balances @ maybe 1/3 of the OAL from the pommel, which certainly registers in the hand as point heavy.

1/3 of OAL from pommel is the classic jian POB/COB/COG (the POP/COP will be placed differently, close to the tip). I like light-hilted swords. It does push the POB out from the guard, which makes it feel point-heavy when held stationary. But the moment of inertia about the grip is lower than the same blade with a heavier hilt or pommel, so dynamically not point-heavy. Light hilt -> lighter overall and a little more agile in the cut. What's not to like about that?

 

[J W Bensinger]

1/3 of OAL from pommel is the classic jian POB/COB/COG (the POP/COP will be placed differently, close to the tip). I like light-hilted swords. It does push the POB out from the guard, which makes it feel point-heavy when held stationary. But the moment of inertia about the grip is lower than the same blade with a heavier hilt or pommel, so dynamically not point-heavy. Light hilt -> lighter overall and a little more agile in the cut. What's not to like about that?

Very interesting you mention the jian. I made a wu jian out of a cut down Chen Tinker bastard sword blade (for a while I was doing custom hilts on the Chen replacement blades, and had one left and reeeeaally wanted a wu jian) and it hit Yang Jwing-ming's 1/3 POB exactly. Waaay different from the wushu jian. It's one of my favorite swords:

 

[BitingSarcasm]

I like that fan-shaped guard. Clean lines, and it draws upon the symbolism of the Scholar. Anytime I think about getting a new jian, I look at the pictures and think about what a pain it would be to keep the gunk out of all the little nooks and crannies. That wouldn't be a problem here.

 

[J W Bensinger]

Some very lazy cuts on a freestanding cardboard roll with the karabela...not real scientific but it does cut...and it sings

 

[Mecha]

Looks nice and quick!

 

[kevin -the professor]

I applaud the efforts, and the choice. I cut my fullers in cold, too. I use a die grinder with a brazing rod hose-clamped to it, and the rod is bent to serve as a finger for the grinder to follow the spine. I also should mention that it is a variable speed die grinder, so I can cut and smooth pretty well with it.

I didn't see a pommel on the first sword, did I misinterpret the pic?

Having essentially no experience with originals of these, I don't know how the curve is supposed to be shaped along the length of the blade, or the distal taper. I can say that the information on distal taper that horseclover is giving you is spot on for messers and for daos.

great work. great choice, too.

 

[J W Bensinger]

I applaud the efforts, and the choice. I cut my fullers in cold, too. I use a die grinder with a brazing rod hose-clamped to it, and the rod is bent to serve as a finger for the grinder to follow the spine. I also should mention that it is a variable speed die grinder, so I can cut and smooth pretty well with it.

I didn't see a pommel on the first sword, did I misinterpret the pic?


Having essentially no experience with originals of these, I don't know how the curve is supposed to be shaped along the length of the blade, or the distal taper. I can say that the information on distal taper that horseclover is giving you is spot on for messers and for daos.

great work. great choice, too.

Thanks. The karabela isn't a pommeled sword-slab grips and (on fancier non-munition grade swords) a metal band around the edge of the grip:

I've been thinking about grinding in a little more distal and letting the fullers fade out-I rather like the balance the way it is, but it would be interesting to see how light it'll get.
The big kilij with the horrendously random fuller (first sword from the 90's, forged fuller) gets very (1/16") thin from the yelman to the tip-but it's still a long blade and not good for trying new cuts with.
I've seen karabela with the kilij/talwar uneven curvature, and with even arcs from shallow to fairly deep-I suspect it depended on where the cutler got the blade.

 

[J W Bensinger]

I'll take some pics of the fullering tool-it's basically a guided scraper using old 1/4" HSS lathe tool bit stock as a cutter. I'd like to make one that uses the carbide cnc tool inserts-there would be far less resharpening.