Live Blade Training?

Sir,
really appreciate your comments, they are definite words of wisdom. I only gotten out of the military in March 1998. I haven't been out long. I do understand alot if things have changed. So therefore the precautions to gain the training and experiance with less injury.That definitely is a smarter way.
Lima Charlie. I dont believe I heard about that guy in hollywood. Personally I wouldn't even put an unloaded gun to my head. I prefer the bore to be pointed towards somewhere else.
As far as the "rush" is concerned, please allow me define this a little more. I can more than assure, I did not train to get the rush. I did not know that would happen till it did happen. I only trained that way because that is what I was told to do. My mind set was I wanted to be as good as they(the Pendakars) were and was willing to do whatever it took to get there. I can remember more than once going home and going somewhere just to be alone, terrified of the experiances I have had that day. I had no one to talk to about these experiances and in the begining it was rough. After a few months went by, I finally got the hang of it and my training experiance then became quite the adventure .Again, I truly do see where your coming from, I sincerely do appreciate your comments. I sincerely hope that all your colleagues do read that last posting you put, it was excellent. It was well written. Thank you.
 
I don´t think that the pros of live blade training outweigh the cons. I have never experienced live blade partner drills, nor would I want to. I don´t want to become any "rush" part of my trainig routine, I´m more of a "keep sober" type of guy, concerning fighting. Live blade just don´t work for me, I want to survive my training as well as any real attacker(s). I can acquire the feeling for blade orientation with cutting training targets. I even think of a blade when using a stick, a good way of keeping the threatening feeling of live blades in your mind without using real ones. I train with dulled steel blades, rubber and wooden knives, and it is perfectly ok for me. If you want students to focus, take cardboard, dummies or (the best) a side of meat, and show how easily a bladed weapon does tremendous damage. That should suffice for most people.
Only my 0.02, of course.

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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron
 
JRF,

Yes, I was talking about live blade with partners, the only time I train solo with a trainer is when I am working something new in tight with a rattan hoop. And the hoop is really a great tool to keep your lines very, very tight. But that one is another Thread altogether.

Live blades should be used solo after you are comfortable with them, and I would imagine everyone who has chimed in on this Thread thus far...are more than comfortable training solo with live steel.

You should also practice the draw, more on that in a minute.

And...cutting things...if you can afford it, meat. But at least buy a few shirts and jackets at a local yard sale and drape them over cardboard boxes, do something to get the feel of resistance (dragging) and rebound you can encounter.

The Draw. I have seen the following people involved in blade arts.

Those that never even use trainers, only sticks.

Those that will use rubber knives, but never dull steel or aluminum.

People that never carry knives anyway but always seem to have an opinion.

People that don't practice the draw, but think the best Kali or Escrima will help them on the street once the sh*t hits the fan.

People that think only a firearm, edged weapon or ASP Baton is going to carry the day and they study no Hand to Hand.

Guess what? They meet a nasty Biker or ex-Con, they're probably going to die.

All the Expert Level Kali in the entire world will do you no good if you cannot get the weapon into the fray. Practice the Draw. Practice it slowly, over and over and over and over until you are sick of it. And do it well. Perfect practice makes perfect. This is like being an Olympic-Grade Shooter and having a Concealed Carry Permit. Never practicing the draw, because you are an Expert Shooter...

All of this is still on target as we are talking about live blade training, it is just more along the lines of solo now.

Getting back to the partner training with live steel...I am not going to say that you should not do very slow flow drills with live steel, if you can get some awareness out of that, I have done that myself. But anything that involves working with speed...it seems like a waste of time in that, you should not have to tune yourself into that, you should already be there. You should be very aware than even with a dulled/rounded folder, that you are dealing with steel. Hell, even a dull steel or aluminum folder could kill you if it hit your throat.

As for the rush, you can get the shakes in many different ways. A lot of top Shooters on various Special Ops Units will do some quick jumping jacks, push ups or run in place for about a minute to simulate the shakes of adrenaline, etc. I love adrenaline. I don't love sutures.
smile.gif


I love a near miss when I am on the Capitol Beltway, as long as my family is not in the vehicle, it makes me feel alive, it gives me focus and control...it allows me to study how a lot of things happen. Bob Taylor and I were talking on the phone today about time compression during car accidents and violent conflict. Adrenaline can help you get a handle on that and understand things. Know your mind and know it well. Seems kooky? Read up!

I appreciate and understand the seriousness of why you guys are training this way, I just don't think it is necessary anymore. I would not even really condemn it, but think hard about the live gun disarm analogy.
 
Oh, I don't think the canyon is wide between us either. I think it is a matter of perception, you or someone else may indeed need to kick your brain into "high gear" and use live steel to get you to a certain area, a feel, energy or mindset. I, on the other hand, just treat the dull steel and aluminum as if it were real and I am always policing myself. "Would I do that on the street?" "Am I taking for granted that this is not going to cut me?"

In the case of my trainers, I have 2 Enduras from Eric Remmen when he was selling them. I have one Endura I dulled myself. And an Emerson Commander trainer. Those are the real folders that are dulled. And I am reminded by what Roy of Hammerhead Tactical Knives relayed to me in Atlanta this year about dull steel trainers and I believe it was an Endura. He said someone got thrusted in the inside of the forearm and it did in fact go in and poured the blood out. So, this is not a game by any means either.

My idea of a disarm when I am unarmed is to try and strike the arm and shock the knife out of their hand or otherwise cause some dysfunction, and I have done that on the street and it has worked. Strips and locks is scary stuff.

The problem is, it is so damned easy for someone with a "clue" to simply withdraw and re-orient the edge and take a piece of you as they leave your immediate sphere of defense. Better to get that strike in and out, in and out, in and out...that is just where my head is at right now.


 
If you go to http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/MPEG%20CLIPS.htm
you can download an MPEG video of an empty hand vs. live blade drill from the Pekiti-Tirsia system. The drill shown is called "knife tapping" and is more like the "mortar between the bricks" than the "bricks" themselves.
My instructor (Tuhon Leo Gaje) used this type of training to make sure that if you froze the first time you saw a live blade come at you, it would be in the controlled environment of the school.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
President, Pekiti-Tirsia International http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com
 
I totally agree with Mr. Rearic about the Draw. At one time i was one of those fools who didn't practice the fast draw thinking that my skill in training and actual combat experiance would get me through. My grandfather was a quick draw artist with a six shooter and taught me the art but again I did it lackdaisly just to keep him happy. Then came the day when I needed and almost cease to exist if i didn't have my partner there. After that incident, I became a very avid practioner of the fast draw with knife and pistol as well as rifle and shotgun. From that time on the fast draw has saved my life a great many times. I also learned later the same goes for hitting with fist, feet, elbow etc. I did a great deal of research on the fast draw and found the best I could find as well as read and, last but not the least, I humbly went back to my grandfather on leave to reteach me what he knew. To this day I still practice the fast draw. In my old line of work, there were only two kinds of people, the quick and the dead. And by the way it is a very good idea to practice the fast draw with both hands, either one at a time or both.

[This message has been edited by alexipublications (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Boy, you take a few days off and a thread goes nuts.

Okay, since I was one of the first to comment on this thread, let me clarify some things. I do not SPAR with live blades! That would be a potentially life threatening or crippling event and would serve no purpose.

My live blade training is very, very limited.
It normally occurs when I am working on something specific with a partner I have great trust in. In my initial reply I commented that it changed my attitude about various disarms. I make aluminum trainers and all my students use them. Most of us also have some type of dulled out folder drone. When you are doing strips and disarms of blades you often contact various portions of the blade, before the knife comes loose or you grab it and remove it from their hand. Even with the best dulled out trainer it always seems to be practical. When we started doing the same moves in sllooowww motion with live blades it became obvious that the chances of contacting a sharp edge or point were extremely high. Of course this is better than getting stabbed or cut, but we have changed our focus from working the blade hand until the knife comes loose, to attempting to deflect, redirect or momentarily halt the blade hand and striking/smashing the head until the knife comes loose. Yes, you can do the same drill with a marking pen in place of the knife and learn the same lesson, but it didn't really become an obvious concern until live blades were used.

I have been training in various martial arts for 22 years now. I am always looking for the safest way to train and spar and the safest way to recreate the dynamics of a real fight. Succesful repetition is one of the keys to good training. FIST suits, aluminum training weapons, mats, etc. are all used on a regular basis. Live blades are not. They are an extreme specialty and a personal choice. I want to keep training for another 20 years.

Don,
You comment that one slip and you are "graveyard dead". That is part of the point of trying the moves with live blades. I have seen suicidal moves taught as disarms, because they train with dowels or rubber knives and have 'no fear'. I have called some people on this and the simplest way to get the point across is to ask them to show you the move in slooowww motion, but with a live blade. 99% say 'No way! I'll get cut' which was my point in the first place.

Syk,
99.9999% of my weapons training with a partner is with aluminum trainers or occasionaly a red knife. Yes, this is all the realism most people need and more than most martial arts students get at the McDojo.
That .0001% of the time a live blade is used is my choice. I don't ask anyone else to try it and would not allow anyone not at the proper level do it in any of my classes.

"There is a fine line between realism and madness." Don, I am an LEO, I'm on the tactical team, I ride a motorcycle, I am a rock climber and when I get a few extra bucks in the bank I want to try sky diving. Am I suicidal? I doubt it. I know the risks and I make my own choices about the level I do these things at. I don't encourage anyone to do any of these things. If they come to me and say they want try motorcycle riding or rock climbing, I give them the best advice I can and let them decide at what level they want to try it.

...and finally, that 'Rush' thing. I don't do live blade training seeking a rush. I don't rock climb seeking a rush. I don't ride motorcycles seeking a rush. I wear helmets, use ropes and safety gear and only train, climb, and ride with the right people. But when you do something at the highest level and pull it off, there is a special feeling and certain confidence that fills you.


 
Pro,

I agree with 100% of what you said. Except the last two paragraphs. I was not only addressing you. Not firing shots across the bow, so to speak.

To be exact, flow drills working up any speed, with live steel is incredibly dangerous.

If you want to use a live steel and show what can happen during a painfully slow disarm like a strip, I have no problem with that at all.

Drawing practice, solo practice and targeting and cutting practice with live blades I feel is a must too. And I am not going to sit here and say I have not used a live blade to possibly show someone what a fantasy world they live in either, as you described about other martial arts.

Now that we have come full circle and stated a few different missions, I feel we are on the same page entirely. But I still disagree that nowadays you should work actual drills at speed with live steel. As Roy of Hammerhead Knives pointed out about a dulled Endura Drone, at speed, even a very dull and rounded edge and point can cause enough damage to require sutures. I think we are all on the same page now. I once had a fingernail torn in half down to the base of the cuticle from a very rapid redonda performed by a training partner with an Endura Drone. That might seem sissified to even state, point is, I felt that one! I may not have felt that in a rush of adrenalin and endorphin though. But they can do some very bad damage.

So...slooooow disarm demo's and lesson/confidence builders using live steel is O.K. by me. Drills...errah, no, not convinced yet!
smile.gif
 
Oh, I am very convinced. Full-speed, live blade partner training. Never.

I do train solo with my live weapons, but carefully. Many is the time in training, I have popped myself in the elbow with a training blade, or whacked the tips of my fingers. Suro Inay likes to describe the cuts students have shown him from solo live blade practice. You have to be confident handling a live blade though, or what's the point?

I understand that when (if) I reach Guro (instructor) level, I will have to face live blade during the test, but not full speed.
 
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