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Lobbying for better knife steel
- Thread starter beera
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there is already another knife steel on the way. We should be seeing it on some models of knives soon. It is CPM-154. I'm sure it will have its own problems that we will be discussing here in the future.
Even before hearing a lot about chipping, I was never impressed with the choice of S30V to replace, for example, the BG-42 in the Sebenza (not as hard and sharp is what I regret, others talk about toughness etc.).
All I ever hear is that knifemakers seem to love it more than anything else, and users tend to prefer VG-10, Bg-42 etc.
All I ever hear is that knifemakers seem to love it more than anything else, and users tend to prefer VG-10, Bg-42 etc.
Crompal said:
Hi Mr Dick Barber,
I don't know who you are but you sound important
I want something with the best edge retention
, that is tough and sharpens easily . And stainless . Is it so hard of a demand from your great industry and technology and ingenuity? I am just a knife user and I wish knife users and manufacturers could keep pushing the steel makers to keep them on their toes. I am sure that if the market wants it, it will happen
regards
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Don't know what you are using your knives for, but if what you are using them for chips the blade, the problem may be because the steel is too hard therefore brittle. Maybe try something with a RC 58-59. 440C may also be too brittle for your use. 440C has the most chromium of any knife making it a RC of 60. Any more chromium and it would be too brittle to be any good.
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I have a few S30V knives, and have never had a problem. Then again, I use the right tool for the job and don't go around chopping, etc with my folders. IMO, S30V is a good steel for a smaller blade designed for basic EDC use. People are asking too much of S30V.
I have to agree that VG-10 is an excellent steel that seems to get overshadowed.
I have to agree that VG-10 is an excellent steel that seems to get overshadowed.
ElectricZombie said:
I didn't chop guys
Its silly ,but I lost the tip of one of my knives carving a heart on a tree. How come?
It was not even dry wood. It was a living tree.
The knife was marketed as a survival folder.
I never chopped with my folders, I just sharpened a dry stick or something. in a playing kind of way. No hard use.
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Everyone should just switch to Hitachi Blue Super Steel.
I mean, it's obvious to me, at least.
I mean, it's obvious to me, at least.
I, like others, have experienced improved performance after a couple of sharpenings with S30V. I was never impressed with the stuff until I sharpened my Paramilitary 2 or 3 times and now I can almost say I love it. It holds an edge great now, whereas at first it was merely average.
My CRK mnandi was great with the first sharpening--I did not test the edge from the factory. I was surprised by its edge retention and after it got a bit dull I gave it a few swipes on the sharpmaker white stones and to my surprised it actually responded the way I expected, it got sharp again. This is in contrast to my experience with my paramilitary which made me give it another try and hence, my experience above.
Another experience which did not end so happy is my friend's kershaw leek in S30v (cheasapeak knife and tool limited run). The S30V in that knife has given me nothing but pain in trying to get it sharp. I have reprofiled it twice now on the edge pro because I figured the first time I didn't remove enough of the "factory steel", due to its reluctance in getting sharp with the first reprofiling. I should say that it gets plenty sharp for normal knife cutting tasks, even pops arm hair but being the obessive sharpener that I am, I wanted it to cut hanging hair as I have done with my other knives.
From my experience and limited knowledge I think that the US steel makers need to make steels that are more similar to the Japanese steels, namely VG10 and ZDP-189. This would involving moving away from vanadium carbides. This seems to not be the case with S125v coming out, which is supposedly the answer to ZDP-189. The problem is S125V seems to simply be for all intents and purposes, a more vanadium rich S90V -- ie. hard to sharpen, does not polish well. Actually I should say HARDER to sharpen and polishes LESS well than even S90V. S90V never took off due to these reasons so why should S90V.
Now, I understand that these exotics are not necessarily meant to be mainstream like VG10 or S30V, but that is not my point. My point is the direction in which the American steels are moving. Compared to ZDP-189, S125V does not seem to even stand a chance (exageration on my end, but that is the way I feel). It may do well in market, afterall American companies almost have to buy it if they want an exotic don't they? Shipping ZDP-189 is cost prohibitive. But from a performance standpoint S125V will already be losing badly in at least one factor: ease of sharpening. Afterall, ZDP-189 is actually easy to sharpen from many reports on this and other forums (and in my own experience), and this is compared to nonexotics. Then there's the higher hardness of ZDP-189 vs S125V. It seems that the large quantity of vanadium carbides will be holding the hardness back as it does with S30V.
The Japanese push hardness in their steels, the US is in a race with vanadium carbides. I think the vanadium carbides route is reaching the end and its time to look push other things to create better knife steel.
BG42, is a steel that is most similar to the two japanese steels, VG10 and ZDP-189. It has vanadium carbides, but just enough to leave the chromium free for stain resistance. BG42 gets harder than S30V and because of that, edge holding is about equal in my experience, yet it is easier to sharpen. BG42 is for many people their favorite steel.
Comparing optimal S30V (after its factory edge is sharpened away) to VG10 in real life I notice the following: VG10 is much easier to sharpen. I don't have much edge retention experience with VG10 so I will not comment on that.
Comparing S30V to VG10 from what I read on the forums the following seem to be true: VG10 is easier to sharpen and edge holding is almost equal, with S30V being a little better in this regard. From what it seems, the edge holding difference is not very pronounced and few would notice the difference but everyone would notice the ease of sharpening. So, which do you think is really the better steel? Everyone concentrates way too much on edge holding in my opinion, and the fact that they will have to sharpen it is pushed to the back of their mind. A gain a little, lose a lot situation, in my opinion.
One thing I have yet to mention is toughness. In a folding knife I find this to not be an issue. The steels being compared are all adequate. Afterall, how often do we hear someone say: "thank goodness I got the S30V over the VG10 because cutting that [insert object to be cut] would have surely chipped my VG10!" Actually, we hear the opposite, but I do think that something factory sharpening jobs are causing the problems with S30V.
It may sound like I am bashing S30V but this is not the case. S30V is AWSOME stuff when its done right (factory edge removed?). It is in fact right up there with VG10, although I do like VG10 better due to its ease of sharping. However, the differences in the two steels: hardness levels, and wear resistance are close enough that I can like both. VG10 is not that much harder than S30V (typically a point), and S30V is not so vanadium carbide rich that it is a bear to sharpen. Taking these levels to extremes as does ZDP-189 and S125V will surely make me hate S125V and love ZDP-189. I already do love ZDP-189 but if all the above things I have said are true (which I doubt) then I will surely hate S125V.
I am no metallurgist, and any of the things I've said above may be completely wrong, there is surely more to it that I am missing, and if so please set me right because the above shows the impression I am getting which I hope to not be the case.
My CRK mnandi was great with the first sharpening--I did not test the edge from the factory. I was surprised by its edge retention and after it got a bit dull I gave it a few swipes on the sharpmaker white stones and to my surprised it actually responded the way I expected, it got sharp again. This is in contrast to my experience with my paramilitary which made me give it another try and hence, my experience above.
Another experience which did not end so happy is my friend's kershaw leek in S30v (cheasapeak knife and tool limited run). The S30V in that knife has given me nothing but pain in trying to get it sharp. I have reprofiled it twice now on the edge pro because I figured the first time I didn't remove enough of the "factory steel", due to its reluctance in getting sharp with the first reprofiling. I should say that it gets plenty sharp for normal knife cutting tasks, even pops arm hair but being the obessive sharpener that I am, I wanted it to cut hanging hair as I have done with my other knives.
From my experience and limited knowledge I think that the US steel makers need to make steels that are more similar to the Japanese steels, namely VG10 and ZDP-189. This would involving moving away from vanadium carbides. This seems to not be the case with S125v coming out, which is supposedly the answer to ZDP-189. The problem is S125V seems to simply be for all intents and purposes, a more vanadium rich S90V -- ie. hard to sharpen, does not polish well. Actually I should say HARDER to sharpen and polishes LESS well than even S90V. S90V never took off due to these reasons so why should S90V.
Now, I understand that these exotics are not necessarily meant to be mainstream like VG10 or S30V, but that is not my point. My point is the direction in which the American steels are moving. Compared to ZDP-189, S125V does not seem to even stand a chance (exageration on my end, but that is the way I feel). It may do well in market, afterall American companies almost have to buy it if they want an exotic don't they? Shipping ZDP-189 is cost prohibitive. But from a performance standpoint S125V will already be losing badly in at least one factor: ease of sharpening. Afterall, ZDP-189 is actually easy to sharpen from many reports on this and other forums (and in my own experience), and this is compared to nonexotics. Then there's the higher hardness of ZDP-189 vs S125V. It seems that the large quantity of vanadium carbides will be holding the hardness back as it does with S30V.
The Japanese push hardness in their steels, the US is in a race with vanadium carbides. I think the vanadium carbides route is reaching the end and its time to look push other things to create better knife steel.
BG42, is a steel that is most similar to the two japanese steels, VG10 and ZDP-189. It has vanadium carbides, but just enough to leave the chromium free for stain resistance. BG42 gets harder than S30V and because of that, edge holding is about equal in my experience, yet it is easier to sharpen. BG42 is for many people their favorite steel.
Comparing optimal S30V (after its factory edge is sharpened away) to VG10 in real life I notice the following: VG10 is much easier to sharpen. I don't have much edge retention experience with VG10 so I will not comment on that.
Comparing S30V to VG10 from what I read on the forums the following seem to be true: VG10 is easier to sharpen and edge holding is almost equal, with S30V being a little better in this regard. From what it seems, the edge holding difference is not very pronounced and few would notice the difference but everyone would notice the ease of sharpening. So, which do you think is really the better steel? Everyone concentrates way too much on edge holding in my opinion, and the fact that they will have to sharpen it is pushed to the back of their mind. A gain a little, lose a lot situation, in my opinion.
One thing I have yet to mention is toughness. In a folding knife I find this to not be an issue. The steels being compared are all adequate. Afterall, how often do we hear someone say: "thank goodness I got the S30V over the VG10 because cutting that [insert object to be cut] would have surely chipped my VG10!" Actually, we hear the opposite, but I do think that something factory sharpening jobs are causing the problems with S30V.
It may sound like I am bashing S30V but this is not the case. S30V is AWSOME stuff when its done right (factory edge removed?). It is in fact right up there with VG10, although I do like VG10 better due to its ease of sharping. However, the differences in the two steels: hardness levels, and wear resistance are close enough that I can like both. VG10 is not that much harder than S30V (typically a point), and S30V is not so vanadium carbide rich that it is a bear to sharpen. Taking these levels to extremes as does ZDP-189 and S125V will surely make me hate S125V and love ZDP-189. I already do love ZDP-189 but if all the above things I have said are true (which I doubt) then I will surely hate S125V.
I am no metallurgist, and any of the things I've said above may be completely wrong, there is surely more to it that I am missing, and if so please set me right because the above shows the impression I am getting which I hope to not be the case.
Cliff Stamp
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ElectricZombie said:
It was not promoted as a steel for light use folders, it was used for huge 1/4" tacticals and heavily promoted for its toughness. Many of the reports on chipping also have nothing to do with chopping, I have seen chipping on two Benchmades just from cutting wood, and one was so bad that it actually broke apart on the sharpening stone (black arkansas).
-Cliff
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By the way, my S30V never chipped either.
beera said:Hi Mr Dick Barber,
I don't know who you are but you sound important
I want something with the best edge retention
I am just a knife user and I wish knife users and manufacturers could keep pushing the steel makers to keep them on their toes. I am sure that if the market wants it, it will happen
regards
As you increase corrosion resistance and edge retention you decrease toughness and ease of sharpening.
there is no such thing as a free lunch
You need to decide what is a realistic set of tradeoffs and find someone in a position to help and convince them to work with you.
good luck
I'm one of the lucky guys (and I do think it's luck) who so far has had no problems from my S30V. My Yojimbo and my 730CFS30V have both been chip free. The Spyderco doesn't hold an edge quite as well as the Benchmade - someone said/guessed Spyderco is running their S30V a little softer? - but they've both been problem free.
My guesswork is it sounds like either:
S30V heat treat is a little finicky and the production outfits are still refining their process;
or some of the factory sharpening (on powered machines?) is goobering the factory edge;
or there are skin-effect heat treat problems and you just have to get past the outer bit to get to the good stuff.
My first question is, is their any reasonable volume maker - William Henry, Microtech, MOD, Moki - who is having NO chipping complaints about their S30V?
My second question is, has thorough resharpening actually fixed all of these chipping problems, or just some that we've heard about here so we're making a lot of assumptions?
I certainly would like to see more good knives available in tool/carbon steel, but that doesn't seem to be the way the market is going. I think there just aren't enough users who prefer that set of trade-offs for production makers to want to make many folders that way.
My guesswork is it sounds like either:
S30V heat treat is a little finicky and the production outfits are still refining their process;
or some of the factory sharpening (on powered machines?) is goobering the factory edge;
or there are skin-effect heat treat problems and you just have to get past the outer bit to get to the good stuff.
My first question is, is their any reasonable volume maker - William Henry, Microtech, MOD, Moki - who is having NO chipping complaints about their S30V?
My second question is, has thorough resharpening actually fixed all of these chipping problems, or just some that we've heard about here so we're making a lot of assumptions?
I certainly would like to see more good knives available in tool/carbon steel, but that doesn't seem to be the way the market is going. I think there just aren't enough users who prefer that set of trade-offs for production makers to want to make many folders that way.
Dick, you ARE the expert - if I'm not worried about corrosion resistance, but I want
1] excellent toughness, both against chipping and lateral stress
2] very good edge holding (but not quite as important as toughness)
3] it has to be sharpenable by hand on diamonds (but easy sharpening is not a priority)
what should my list look like of current steels? 3V? Cru-wear? 9V? Are T15, M4, or A9 realistic options for knives?
I've been looking at this chart
http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/metalForming/upgradeChart.cfm
since it looks more accessible for non-metallurgists than the raw data sheets, and puts it all in one place.
- if I'm not worried about corrosion resistance, but I want 1] excellent toughness, both against chipping and lateral stress
2] very good edge holding (but not quite as important as toughness)
3] it has to be sharpenable by hand on diamonds (but easy sharpening is not a priority)
what should my list look like of current steels? 3V? Cru-wear? 9V? Are T15, M4, or A9 realistic options for knives?
I've been looking at this chart
http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/metalForming/upgradeChart.cfm
since it looks more accessible for non-metallurgists than the raw data sheets, and puts it all in one place.
Crompal said:
Honestly, should you be able to combine the edge refinement of M2 with the retention of D2, you'd have a solid seller. Id buy you out of stock myself.
If I have to sharpen it twice as long but half as frequently I could care less.
If I have to wipe the blade down every now and then to prevent surface rust I could care less.
I'm not prying or twisting with a knife, I'm cutting. I want it to do that well and for as long as it can before sharpening.
I love VG10 simply because it takes a good edge and its available cheaply. It's maintenance free rust wise but requires more sharpening to stay in the sweet spot. ZDP-189 seems to fit the bill almost perfectly. Ive used the shit out of my calypso without seeing as much as a single chip yet it still remains hair popping sharp and I've never passed it over a stone. Whether its Cowry, S125v or whatever else, it has to at least match ZDP for me to switch. Id rather buy an american steel but it has to be a match or better.
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Keep in mind that the US steel industry does not revolve around the knives; far from it really. AFAIK S30V is the first American steel made specifically for knives. We're lucky Crucible took an interest and actually produced a steel per knifemakers requests. S90V and S125V were not made for cutlery applications in mind, so they don't have the properties many knife manufacturers look for.JoHnYKwSt said:
I don't know if Japanese steel companies are more dedicated to knife steels. ZDP-189 has been around for over a decade and VG-10 even longer than that. Copying steel recipes and technology is easy nowadays (look at all the particle metallurgy processes, 154CM vs. ATS-34, VG-10 vs. N690Co, etc.). I think Crucible could make steel very similar to modern Japanese grades. But they make steel according to their customer requirements, and maybe a lot of Crucible's customers look for highly wear-resistant, vanadium-rich steels instead of high hardenability.
