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Lock Longevity: framelock ,lockback or axis lock or balisong?
- Thread starter guitarted
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- May 7, 2005
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I am personally partial to Frame locks, as I feel that they ARE the strongest lock. Rick Hinderer invented the lock bar stabilizer, and that makes frame locks even stronger. Strider, with Rick's permission, uses Rick's lockbar stabilzer. And the Zero Tolerance frame locks use it too.
I don't like Bali's. They just do not do it for me.
I don't like Bali's. They just do not do it for me.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
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- 374
Balisongs aren't popular as working knives because they are illegal in a good number of countries.
If you simply used it as a knife, a balisong would last for a very long time. That is of course assuming that it was made by a quality maker.
If you simply used it as a knife, a balisong would last for a very long time. That is of course assuming that it was made by a quality maker.
While I have no scientific evidence to prove it, my intuition tells me that the Bali-Song lock would last the longest....by as many folks have said, they are illegal in many places, and some folks THINK they are illegal everywhere.
Of the others listed, I think the Axis-lock would last the longest.
Of the others listed, I think the Axis-lock would last the longest.
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- Oct 26, 2005
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The balisong has the strongest, most sure lock that I've seen employed on any folding knife. It'll last as long as your hand will if it's done properly- so you know when the lock is fine, in the process of failing, etc. The balisong is also useful because it can be opened in a number of postitions, and you can some spice to your openings should you feel like it. You should never have to worry about a bali as long as you loctite the pins and make sure to avoid rust.
Balis aren't as popular as they should be because of their negative assosciation, and the legal issue involved with carrying one.
Check out the BM32 for a decent example of a nice EDC balisong.
Balis aren't as popular as they should be because of their negative assosciation, and the legal issue involved with carrying one.
Check out the BM32 for a decent example of a nice EDC balisong.
I would definitely rank Framelocks at #1 for longevity. Second would be lockback. I don't know anything about balis.
Although Axis is a great locking mechanism and is very functional, I would not consider it good for longevity. The lock depends on the omega springs, which are very tiny little springs which CAN break. So they are on the bottom of the list for me.
Although Axis is a great locking mechanism and is very functional, I would not consider it good for longevity. The lock depends on the omega springs, which are very tiny little springs which CAN break. So they are on the bottom of the list for me.
I'd have to say that of the "true" locks mentioned (those being the lockback, axis, and framelock); a quality framelock should be the longest lasting. You can get dirt out of it without any real hassles, and it should last for a long time.
Now, I may be in the minority here, but I don't really consider a Bali to be a lock. Its a latch. I've visited houses that were 200+ years old, and they still had the original latches on their doors. Assuming they're made of Ti, I don't think they'll EVER wear out. It should also be noted that Fred Perrin amongst other people consider Balis to be the strongest folding knives in the world.
Now, I may be in the minority here, but I don't really consider a Bali to be a lock. Its a latch. I've visited houses that were 200+ years old, and they still had the original latches on their doors. Assuming they're made of Ti, I don't think they'll EVER wear out. It should also be noted that Fred Perrin amongst other people consider Balis to be the strongest folding knives in the world.
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- Apr 12, 2000
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The bali lock is more of a latch to hold the handles together and doesn't have much to do with locking the blade in the open position. You can have a bali without a latch and if you keep the handles squeezed together the blade isn't going anywhere. I'd be more worried about the small pins wearing or failing on a bali before I'd worry about the latch. That said, I don't care for balis as working knives. I haven't seen a bali with a blade I cared for. They're just kinda skinny and boring to me. I can see them being used for self defense, but I'd rather have a regular style folding knife with a more comfortable and secure handle, larger blade, etc.
As far as how locks hold up over time, I'm probably to young to offer much input from personal experience, maybe when I'm 70 I'll have more real world experience.
However, I have heard of people's liner locks wearing all the way across the tang of the knife, which may result in the knife developing a lot of play. I would imagine a frame lock could have similar wear and I have heard of frame locks and liner locks needing service due to wear.
The knife I have carried the longest and used the most is a Benchmade AXIS lock. If anything the knife has gotten smoother and better with use. I haven't had any failure and signs of significant wear. I think the nature of the lock up would make it take a long time to wear out, especially if it's kept lubricated. Liner locks and frame locks grind and stick more and the process of disengaging them results in the parts rubbing quite a bit. I can see how this can speed up the wearing process.
I think any well made knife made with quality materials, that is well maintained and not abused, should out last the owner.
I'd like to hear from people who have had quality knives wear out on them and what kind of locks they were.
As far as how locks hold up over time, I'm probably to young to offer much input from personal experience, maybe when I'm 70 I'll have more real world experience.
However, I have heard of people's liner locks wearing all the way across the tang of the knife, which may result in the knife developing a lot of play. I would imagine a frame lock could have similar wear and I have heard of frame locks and liner locks needing service due to wear. The knife I have carried the longest and used the most is a Benchmade AXIS lock. If anything the knife has gotten smoother and better with use. I haven't had any failure and signs of significant wear. I think the nature of the lock up would make it take a long time to wear out, especially if it's kept lubricated. Liner locks and frame locks grind and stick more and the process of disengaging them results in the parts rubbing quite a bit. I can see how this can speed up the wearing process.
I think any well made knife made with quality materials, that is well maintained and not abused, should out last the owner.
I'd like to hear from people who have had quality knives wear out on them and what kind of locks they were.
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- Aug 27, 2004
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- 12,957
I am not into Balis but they are strong by design. I think the number one thing going against the bali is the fact that its illegal in a lot of places.
I like lockbacks best for longevity. I've got some lockback folders over 35 years old that have not only been used but used hard and they still function just fine.
Of all lock types made the ones I spend the most time repairing for people are the intergral type. (frame and liner locks) This is particularly true of ones made of titanium vs hardened stainless steel. Both have advantages. Titanium is less prone to being affected by harsh climates and severe cold but it won't wear as well and can and does indent by the much harder blade at the contact point. I see it all the time even on my own hand made ones after just a little use and this is regardless of the thickness of the lock if its titanium.
The Axis lock seems to be a good design but the jury is still out on longevity of the springs. I have my doubts that they will last 35 years or more between repairs or replacments of at least one spring. There have been isolated reports of the springs breaking after a few years and in severe cold weather on like the poles with axis locking folders. The good news on it is that they are much easier to repair than a lock back would be. Also, the axis lock would not be totally unuseable even if both springs broke. It would be fairly easy to stick anything from a small rock to a stick inside and behind the lock and still keep the blade secured in the open position in the field.
The ball lock by Spyderco with the coils spring seems to me to be better equipped for longer spring life over the axis lock. Button locks by design are strong and have coil springs on most so they should last well also, but like the lock back when they do go on you it will be difficult to make the knife with this lock type still function well in a pinch without replacing that spring or finding some way to secure the ball wedged in place by some other physical means..
I know many love the compression lock on the Para Military in both the liner and frame style but I have seen many of these with vertical blade play after some use so I have to wonder about the longevity of that style also after ten or more years of steady everyday use since some of the ones I've seen have been reported to me to have developed play after less than a year. It appears adjustment can be made on those similar to what is done on a liner lock but then sticky locks can always be an issue so its hard to tell at this point.
I think personally that the compression lock has the potential to last a very long time and even after some vertical play develops in these many seem to plateau off from what I've seen and remain unchanged for a very long time after that. But a true assessment of the compression lock is hard to judge right now since its still a very young lock style.
On yet another thought that has occurred to me on more than one occasion: I wonder if making the lock harder could aid in the wear factor with this style or perhaps Spyderco could develop a way to use a frame lock style of compression lock so the lock itself is quite thick like .150 or so. Then inlay the contact point where the blade and lock meet so a very hard wear resistant piece of hardened stainless steel could be installed and or replaced with ease so that what actually contacts the blade is near or at the same hardness as the blade. This could create the best lock ever made in a folding knife.
I have been inlaying my thick frame locks with an insert of hardened stainless this way and its worked well at combining the benefits of lighter weight with titanium and the wear resistance of hardened stainless for a pretty great result. It would also make adjustments to the lock quite easy since replacing an inlay with a new one is all it would take but I have not had to replace one yet.
STR
I like lockbacks best for longevity. I've got some lockback folders over 35 years old that have not only been used but used hard and they still function just fine.
Of all lock types made the ones I spend the most time repairing for people are the intergral type. (frame and liner locks) This is particularly true of ones made of titanium vs hardened stainless steel. Both have advantages. Titanium is less prone to being affected by harsh climates and severe cold but it won't wear as well and can and does indent by the much harder blade at the contact point. I see it all the time even on my own hand made ones after just a little use and this is regardless of the thickness of the lock if its titanium.
The Axis lock seems to be a good design but the jury is still out on longevity of the springs. I have my doubts that they will last 35 years or more between repairs or replacments of at least one spring. There have been isolated reports of the springs breaking after a few years and in severe cold weather on like the poles with axis locking folders. The good news on it is that they are much easier to repair than a lock back would be. Also, the axis lock would not be totally unuseable even if both springs broke. It would be fairly easy to stick anything from a small rock to a stick inside and behind the lock and still keep the blade secured in the open position in the field.
The ball lock by Spyderco with the coils spring seems to me to be better equipped for longer spring life over the axis lock. Button locks by design are strong and have coil springs on most so they should last well also, but like the lock back when they do go on you it will be difficult to make the knife with this lock type still function well in a pinch without replacing that spring or finding some way to secure the ball wedged in place by some other physical means..
I know many love the compression lock on the Para Military in both the liner and frame style but I have seen many of these with vertical blade play after some use so I have to wonder about the longevity of that style also after ten or more years of steady everyday use since some of the ones I've seen have been reported to me to have developed play after less than a year. It appears adjustment can be made on those similar to what is done on a liner lock but then sticky locks can always be an issue so its hard to tell at this point.
I think personally that the compression lock has the potential to last a very long time and even after some vertical play develops in these many seem to plateau off from what I've seen and remain unchanged for a very long time after that. But a true assessment of the compression lock is hard to judge right now since its still a very young lock style.
On yet another thought that has occurred to me on more than one occasion: I wonder if making the lock harder could aid in the wear factor with this style or perhaps Spyderco could develop a way to use a frame lock style of compression lock so the lock itself is quite thick like .150 or so. Then inlay the contact point where the blade and lock meet so a very hard wear resistant piece of hardened stainless steel could be installed and or replaced with ease so that what actually contacts the blade is near or at the same hardness as the blade. This could create the best lock ever made in a folding knife.
I have been inlaying my thick frame locks with an insert of hardened stainless this way and its worked well at combining the benefits of lighter weight with titanium and the wear resistance of hardened stainless for a pretty great result. It would also make adjustments to the lock quite easy since replacing an inlay with a new one is all it would take but I have not had to replace one yet.
STR
I like what STR said about the Axis lock. It is strong by design, but the weak point is the omega spring, although you could wedge the axis bar into position with your fingers. I wish BM would allow you to purchase these omega springs so I could have a couple pairs on hand. They are very easy to replace and only require the removal of the handle slab.
I also love a good framelock! I have a RJ Martin Devastator framelock arriving tomorrow and expect it will be right on the money with lockup. Titanium is softer and will wear faster than the hardened steel tang of the blade, so a framelock simply has more ti that has to be worn and should outlast almost any titanium linerlock. Titanium can be "hardened" which would slow down the wear.
Nothing wrong with a good designed and well executed linerlock. My preferance is for those ll's that have the thick, thick liners that almost put them in the framelock class.
Any framelock or linerlock has to be geometrically right for the lock to be able to function to it's highest capability.
I also love a good framelock! I have a RJ Martin Devastator framelock arriving tomorrow and expect it will be right on the money with lockup. Titanium is softer and will wear faster than the hardened steel tang of the blade, so a framelock simply has more ti that has to be worn and should outlast almost any titanium linerlock. Titanium can be "hardened" which would slow down the wear.
Nothing wrong with a good designed and well executed linerlock. My preferance is for those ll's that have the thick, thick liners that almost put them in the framelock class.
Any framelock or linerlock has to be geometrically right for the lock to be able to function to it's highest capability.
Well, I am about to send in my cqc-12 as the lock is traveling almost over to the g-10 side of the knife. It has been used hard and still locks pretty tight, but it could be better. I am also about to send in a ti atr which has a decent amount of play. I recently got the knife used, so I can't comment on how it was originally, but the compression lock is almost the exact same thickness as the cqc-12s framelock. I am "also" about to send in my bm 42, but not for lock issues. (I messed with the clip and it needs to be replaced) I think the butterfly type lock is hard to beat for pure lasting ability and security. I also have carried a 806 for a few years and it still locks up as strong as the day I got it. I also have a mini socom elite thats been used regularly and its frame lock is still going strong. -I think the socom has a steel lock head and that might be outlastinig the titanium on the atr and cqc-12. Overall, I think it's hard to go wrong with any of these locks. Even though some have developed play, they still wouldn't close on me. It's just bothersome having blade play on any knife to me. (alot of alsos in that post, huh?)
IIRC Microtech has made framelocks with adjustable hardened steel inserts on the tip of the lock bars . Sounds like a pretty good idea . They have also made a few interesting variants on the liner lock . I dont care too much for the Spyderco compression lock - PITA to release .
If it wasnt such a hot button issue I would prolly pack a good quality Bali - simplicity , strength , and fun to play with . I dont consider the Bali to be a lock type , but they are very strong and utilitarian .
I think the friction folder might be the ultimate winner in this stakes ,properly executed by someone like Daryl Winkler - dont see it ever failing .
Chris
If it wasnt such a hot button issue I would prolly pack a good quality Bali - simplicity , strength , and fun to play with . I dont consider the Bali to be a lock type , but they are very strong and utilitarian .
I think the friction folder might be the ultimate winner in this stakes ,properly executed by someone like Daryl Winkler - dont see it ever failing .
Chris
I'm not a huge fan of the Axis, but it seems to me that all the Omega spring has to do is put sufficient pressure on the locking bar to engage it in the slot. The locking bar is very light and thus the spring shouldn't have too much stess.
It may be possible that pressure on the tip would tend to put downward pressure on the locking bar due to the grind angle of the slot and result in the springs encountering more stress (?).
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- Aug 27, 2004
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There is more at play than stress with the springs. Guns do have some smaller springs usually hidden inside, well greased and not exposed to the elements as the parts of the Omega springs are in this folder lock.
I replaced two lockback springs in the last 20 years for customers. One I know the customer tweaked on first and rebent it causing a set in the spring that allowed it to weaken. The second was an old Spyderco Prediver folder that was used for diving in salt and fresh water for many years before it failed. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was due to the owner taking care to rinse it but over time the pitting did take its tole and one day the spring broke. It would have broken much sooner being as thin as the Omega springs. I don't know how much they can take from the elements regarding this kind of thing.
Seems I read of one spring getting nicked by a rehandle job that weakened it also.
STR
I replaced two lockback springs in the last 20 years for customers. One I know the customer tweaked on first and rebent it causing a set in the spring that allowed it to weaken. The second was an old Spyderco Prediver folder that was used for diving in salt and fresh water for many years before it failed. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was due to the owner taking care to rinse it but over time the pitting did take its tole and one day the spring broke. It would have broken much sooner being as thin as the Omega springs. I don't know how much they can take from the elements regarding this kind of thing.
Seems I read of one spring getting nicked by a rehandle job that weakened it also.
STR
I've read a few accounts of the omega spring breaking on one side, never both sides, and still locking up via the remaining spring. Every one of the knives had to be returned to BM for repair. THAT is why I would like to have a couple pair on hand. On framelocks; I received my RJ Martin Devastator yesterday and the framelock on it is as tight as any framelock I've had, with the lock itself being very stiff. This should prevent any accidental disengaging of the lock. Btw, this is the absolute sharpest knife I've ever received, sharper than even my BM 610 Rukus.