Lock Paranoia?

Coronach,

I agree with you about having a trainer for hard use and saving your carry knife for emergencies.

I have a dulled down AFCK which I use for impact training. I do thrusts against a thick leather piece wrapped around my heavy bag. Thus far the AFCK "trainer" lock has not failed, although my hand has gotten pretty chewed up from the impact training.

I also have another liner lock trainer which held up great for about five months and then started to fail. This could be attributed to "abuse" of the liner lock. I had the lock adjusted and now it holds up pretty well.

I also have a one piece 1/8" aluminum trainer modeled after the AFCK and this shows no sign of wear after much impact training. My point is that a piece of aluminum can take more abuse than a "hi-tech" folder. Shouldn't we expect more durability from a lock mechanism? (I'll be putting the Rolling lock to the test)

When the training knife's lock fails (after heavy use), it makes one start to question the reliablity of the carry knife. This may not be fair, but it is in the back of one's mind. Opening a knife repeatedly will also cause the lock to wear. So the carry knife should not be used for hard impact, and repeated openings, especially speed openings, should be avoided.

Axel
 
Exactly.

And I'll be the first to admit that a 'babied' liner lock would still be inferior to a 'babied' rolling lock or axis lock (Assuming everything I've been reading about these puppies is true). You just gotta decide what odds of failure you're willing to live with.

Mike


------------------
Hey! Uncle Sam!

(_!_) Nyah nyah nyah!

Refund! You lose! :)


 
Coronach --

> The argument against linerlocks (or folders in general) is that they fail under
> _repeated_ abuse.


I definitely don't agree with this, for the following reasons. First of all, testing a knife that proclaims itself "tactical" by doing actual defensive training is in no way abuse. Second, the argument about liner locks in its entirety is definitely not limited to defensive use. Guys who use their knives hard see failures, and of course the defensive trainers definitely do hard use. But there's plenty of failures is non-defensive hard use as well. I bring up defensive training because those guys are the ones who stress their knives the most, and the most often. But a failure in defensive training is a failure that could have happened during actual use. Do you *ever* white knuckle, torque, or use the knife point-first in regular use? If so, this is a concern.

But in regards to your question, WHITE KNUCKLING and BLADE TORQUING failures often do happen the first time circumstances are right. If white-knuckling the blade causes the lock to disengage slightly, the first time you get impact spine pressure the blade will fold. If torquing the blade releases the lock, it'll do so the first time you do it. SPINE-PRESSURE failures can be a little more tricky, in some cases it always happens, but in others you have to hit the spine just right. But for defensive use, I fail to see why any of this first-use-vs-constant-use is important. If I hand you a knife and say it's got a 1-in-10 chance of failing in a defensive situation, is that acceptable? 1-in-30? Especially considering i can hand you many inexpensive lockback knives, or an axis or rolling lock, and tell you the odds of failure are so small as to be negligeable.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[ This part below was my initial draft, the part above my signature was the re-write. I forgot to erase the part below, but having just discovered it's still there, I'm keeping it in with this note]

I'm not sure if I agree with your point about "first hard use" versus "repeated hard use". If we were strictly talking about a defensive knife, perhaps. But hard use is hard use. I brought out the example of defensive training, but plenty of people have seen failures in use as well. Torquing the blade or white-knuckling the blade will often both result in failure "first hard use". Utility users are definitely at high risk of this. A defensive user is probably at risk of this during "first hard use" as well.

Win cited the example of Microtech SOCOM linern locks. I can tell you, Win, the Microtech locks are not particularly any better than any other liner locks. I've read multiple stories of SOCOM failures, including an email I got from a guy who ended up with stitches when he torqued the blade in use (not defensive training). Don't get complacent just because of the brand name on the knife!!

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 12 May 1999).]
 
Okay, a few points:

1. I would think that white-knuckling and torque failures could be predicted by your pre-purchase screening...ie, performing your linerlock tests. So, in brief, I agree with you...those easily could be first-time failures...but if I though that the knife was likely to fail for those reasons, I would not have bought it.

2. Defensive tactics constitutes hard use, given. If a blade is marked 'tactical' it should hold up to repeated defensive tactics, sure. And I agree, if you beat around a linerlock enough, it is gonna fail. This is a contradiction, sure...and the presumption that is not met is the second one...repeated use.

Armed with the knowledge that 'hey, my AFCK is not gonna take the same pounding as a REKAT Pocket Hobbit,' I can still get perfectly acceptable use out of the knife by using it only lightly and 'saving' it for that one-time aggressive defensive use. Like I said, a dedicated self defense knife.

It all depends on what you are looking for. If, as Joe seems to suggest, you want a knife that you can use all the time, use it hard and not worry about the lock, then no, a linerlock is not for you. Buy something else.

I also agree...under ANY usage conditions, a rolling or axis lock is superior to a liner. However, I honestly believe that if you are willing to employ a linerlock with an eye to its limitations (and properly screen it), that the possibility of failure drops to an acceptable level...and thus considerations like blade geometry, materials, handle ergonomics, etc etc etc take precedence over lock style.

BTW, Joe? I would buy a Axis-locked M2 AFCK in a heartbeat, if Benchmade would just market it (or an Axis with M2). I'm also eyeing the REKAT Carnivour in Talonite...I recognise the limitations of the linerlock...I just don't think that they necessarily preclude their use in a 'tactical knife.'

Mike


------------------
Hey! Uncle Sam!

(_!_) Nyah nyah nyah!

Refund! You lose! :)


 
Mike,

Hey, M-2 AFCK w/ axis lock, Axis w/ M-2, or Carnivore w/ Talonite, where do I sign up
smile.gif
I get the feeling the Carnivore with talonite blade might end up a bit out of my price range, since it sounds like they're going semi-custom on that. In any case, there's some exciting knives coming up, can't wait!
 
In my youth I had a small enterprise repairing switchblades. Most of these were fairly solid Italian designs with the round post on the back edge of the blade with snaps into a hole in the lock spring. These aren't the quality of todays knives and the springs were lighter, but I got to see the ways lots of folding locks fail. The number one over-stress is throwing the knife. A solid stick into wood could break a lock to 'close' or 'over-open' backwards. Throwing also broke blades and handles. Slashing at really hard objects often broke locks backwards. Weak lock springs and worn locking surfaces would cause failures during whittling when you back the blade out from a stroke that did not go through. This type of failure could occur on a perfectly good knife if the mechanism collects too much pocket lint and the lock only partly engages.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 12 May 1999).]
 
I've been lobbying on the Benchmade forum for them to do the Axis in M2, since that seems like a very natural evolution of the design. No dice. They have no plans to market such a beast in th near future.
frown.gif


I imagine that an axis-locked AFCK is probably even more remote...squeezing a new lock into that frame might be problematic...though the crew at Spyderco managed to do it with the Military. I dunno, I'm no knife designer.

So I'm saving up my precious loot for the talonite Carnivour. I just hope it is not too terribly expensive.

Mike


------------------
Hey! Uncle Sam!

(_!_) Nyah nyah nyah!

Refund! You lose! :)


 
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