Lock Strength - ZT0301 vs AK-47

Any chance we might see a CS liner-lock (it would have to be the Ti-lite I guess), vs a comparable size liner-lock? I would love to see CS's take on the liner-lock (folded liner meeting the tang) vs. a more traditional design. We all know that the Triad is going to win against anything out there except a fixed blade. I would like to see some other types of lock go at it. Kudu, Pocket Bushman, Ti-lite and so on.
 
Honestly, I thought the 0301 was really impressive in that vid, partly because it failed the way it should. My reticence about liner and framelocks is from when you see them fail closed, if you will, but it strikes me as a huge success (and an advatage over almost any other type of lock) when they're designed well enough to fail open.

A lock that breaks in such a way that there's essentially no chance of blade meeting my fingers is a good thing in my book, kudos ZT.
 
jstrange said:
Any chance we might see a CS liner-lock (it would have to be the Ti-lite I guess), vs a comparable size liner-lock? I would love to see CS's take on the liner-lock (folded liner meeting the tang) vs. a more traditional design. We all know that the Triad is going to win against anything out there except a fixed blade. I would like to see some other types of lock go at it. Kudu, Pocket Bushman, Ti-lite and so on.
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yep. i would be very interested in that as well. i expect we won't see it though as it would not fare well potentially. this seems to be mainly for the tri-ad marketing side. pocket bushman i would really like to see.....and some modern liner locks and back locks, etc.


still love my tri-ads though and demko is a genius.
 
Still eagerly waiting for Adamas, Spyderco ball bearing lock(Manix 2), and maybe Compression lock, even though i don't think compression lock will win here.

Here is what i think would compare well:

Adamas VS Old School Med Espada(more comparable in terms of weight and build) or G-10 med Espada with liner around the lock and stop pin area. AK can compete here as well.

Manix 2 VS American Lawman - Almost exactly same size and dimension. Even the design is similar, i.e. choil, long handle short edge.

Paramilitary 2 VS American Lawman - same as above. The new XHP Lawman should have comparable weight.
 
I think the Para 2 will surprise folks. I think it will hold more weight than any of the other non Cold Steel knives. May even hold more than a Tri-Ad lock.
 
David Lowry said:
I think the Para 2 will surprise folks. I think it will hold more weight than any of the other non Cold Steel knives. May even hold more than a Tri-Ad lock.
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Hmm i guess we can only find out when they test it. My opinion is that it will not hold as well as Triad lock based on the follow reasons.

Compression lock has 2 potential failure modes(only consider the lock failure, not blade breakage or other non-lock related failure like what happened to Tatanka):

1. Liner slippage
- The area of the tang contacting the lock bar is a slope, not a flat straight line, this is to allow for self adjustment as the lock wears. Similar to liner/frame lock. However, it's sloped outward, i.e. has less resistance for the lock liner to travel outward than inward(even though the spring tension slightly negates that). Because of this, there is a chance that under impact/load the lock bar can slip out of the position. Also, because the liner is made of steel, it doesn't stick as well to the blade tang.

- In contrast, triad lock bar and blade tang is cut at an opposite angle, i.e. higher chance for the lock to "slip in" than to "slip out" under heavy impact, so the lock bar has a tendency to move in during impact as there are less resistance that way. This pretty much eliminates the chance of lock slipping out during impact. Remember, nature always follows the path of the least resistance. Just like how the water droplet is round.

2. Material failure
- Another way for the compression lock to fail is when the liner deformed/damaged to the point that it can no longer support the blade tang, either by breaking(unlikely due to soft-ish steel) or deforming(plastic probably). Alternatively, the stop-pin could fail or shear out of the steel liner & G-10, even though it's unlikely to happen IMO. In this case i think the weakest link is the single part of the ~1-1.5mm thick liner "sandwiched" between the blade tang and the stop-pin, and i believe the width of the liner sandwiched is about or less than 6mm IIRC. So you have a 6mm high/wide and 1-1.5mm thick material holding the blade open.

- On the other hand, triad has the same failure mode to, where the lock bar has to either break, or the stop pin has to break out of the G-10 handle. In terms of material, let's assume that the width and height of the lockbar contacting the blade tang and the stop-pin is the same as compression above, you have a lockbar *thickness* of ~0.5mm more than the blade thickness. Take American Lawman as example, that is 4mm, so that about ~2.5 - 4 times the material to break(assuming material is the same). Another interesting point is that for Triad lock, in order for the lockbar to break, the stop pin has to break out of the G-10. However in order for the stop pin to get shear off the G-10, the lockbar has to be deformed enough(i.e. break). So the lock bar and the handle holding the stop pin essentially have to fail together in order for the lock to break! This is because the lock bar itself, even without the stop pin is a full functional lockback on adrenalin.

Or course during real life scenario, there are many other variables that can cause failure. But based on the above analysis(with totally no scientific data :rolleyes:) my opinion that Triad lock is less prone to failure.
 
I find these tests entertaining just like the next guy, but lets not forget a framelock is much stronger when it is in the hand reinforced by grip pressure. I don't know about you guys, but I hold my knife by the handle 100% of the time I use it. I know it would be difficult to test this, but just a thought.
 
oxman198 said:
I find these tests entertaining just like the next guy, but lets not forget a framelock is much stronger when it is in the hand reinforced by grip pressure. I don't know about you guys, but I hold my knife by the handle 100% of the time I use it. I know it would be difficult to test this, but just a thought.
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I hear that all the time, but I honestly just don't believe it. When doing difficult cutting the last thing I want to be doing is squeezing the handle of the knife as it steals power from the direction of the cut and contributes to hand fatigue and, even when I do squeeze the handle, barely any of that pressure is pushing on the lockbar. Heck, most lockbars require only a few mm of motion to unlock, and the flesh of my hand will easily compress that much. I could be wrong on that, but I never see any evidence to support the grip pressure theory, just people asserting that it is so.
 
^no you are pretty much right. Difficult angles to cut at, remove the hardcore hammer grip belief. I do it all the time in the yard cutting cat claw vines at their base. Sometimes it gets so difficult i go back in and switch to a fixed blade to stop the risks.

In the test the lock bar relief gave out. Your hand isn't down there with serious strength. Even if it was when the titanium gives way your hand strength ain't gonna make any bit of difference. Anyone who doubts that do there own test and hammer grip hold the knife. I serious suggest you don't do that. It wont make a difference at those weights. You will potentially lose fingers.
 
Kudos to Cold Steel for posting a video that shows a competitors knife holding up well. They could have easily just not posted the video at all once they saw that the ZT stood up well.
 
AmosPaul said:
Kudos to Cold Steel for posting a video that shows a competitors knife holding up well. They could have easily just not posted the video at all once they saw that the ZT stood up well.
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So far the Benchmade bedlam has held up the best imho. The zt is a close second though.
 
jbmonkey said:
^no you are pretty much right. Difficult angles to cut at, remove the hardcore hammer grip belief. I do it all the time in the yard cutting cat claw vines at their base. Sometimes it gets so difficult i go back in and switch to a fixed blade to stop the risks.

In the test the lock bar relief gave out. Your hand isn't down there with serious strength. Even if it was when the titanium gives way your hand strength ain't gonna make any bit of difference. Anyone who doubts that do there own test and hammer grip hold the knife. I serious suggest you don't do that. It wont make a difference at those weights. You will potentially lose fingers.
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So when you are cutting you regularly apply over 225lbs of pressure downward on the spine? If not then I wouldn't worry, the titanium wont give way.
 
oxman198 said:
So when you are cutting you regularly apply over 225lbs of pressure downward on the spine? If not then I wouldn't worry, the titanium wont give way.
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No. That wasn't really the point. The point was if the assumed always used hammer grip can be done. We are also looking at a properly done frame lock in that video with the correct angles. It did very well for a frame lock. What if the geometry isn't correct? It happens. There are to many variables going on at all times to make blanket statements with frame locks. Including the myth of i have it in a hard hammer grip at all times when cutting so it cant fail. That was more the point, but we could discuss forever and counter point until we are old men on the topic.
 
oxman198 said:
I find these tests entertaining just like the next guy, but lets not forget a framelock is much stronger when it is in the hand reinforced by grip pressure. I don't know about you guys, but I hold my knife by the handle 100% of the time I use it. I know it would be difficult to test this, but just a thought.
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If you think that you holding the handle will stop it from bending at the relief cut, you got another thing coming. Your hand may stop the lock from slipping but it will not stop steel or titanium from bending.
 
jbmonkey said:
No. That wasn't really the point. The point was if the assumed always used hammer grip can be done. We are also looking at a properly done frame lock in that video with the correct angles. It did very well for a frame lock. What if the geometry isn't correct? It happens. There are to many variables going on at all times to make blanket statements with frame locks. Including the myth of i have it in a hard hammer grip at all times when cutting so it cant fail. That was more the point, but we could discuss forever and counter point until we are old men on the topic.
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I get your point. Not all framelocks are properly executed just like all liner locks aren't weak. Honestly the only framelocks I have experience with are my ZT 0550, 561 and Sebenza 21. All of which seem incredibly strong and I would absolutely trust.
 
The point that Demko made near the beginning of the vid is something that bothered me about this knife when I owned one. The lock bar is very lightly sprung - there's little pressure on it. IMO, the lockbar cutout should not have had so much material removed.
 
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