Lock Test Videos: Room For Improvement

Fire_Brand said:
They do use 4" away sometimes but not always, and the force on the lock is always going to be torque (mostly). The point being is that they always report the numbers in how much weight they hang from the knife, not how much torque is being experienced by the lock which would be a more universal measurement and then make different knives comparable. The desire here is that they stop reporting that a knife "held 600 pounds!" and instead say it held so many foot-pounds of torque because it would be more meaningful.
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If the handle isn't long enough to get a secure mount then they don't go to 4" true. On the other hand, multiplying the weight by 1/3 to get the torque experienced isn't that hard.
 
jbmonkey said:
So then its all marketing and not for information and education. So be it.
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It's for education and information. Till now everybody could see that CS locks are the strongest when compared to the knives already tested. And if you would watch all videos, you would have known that they test also their knives till they break.

https://youtu.be/gTt4sYrP1dA?t=24m44s

But you can keep on hating and cry like a baby about how CS is doing it "only for marketing", while I will carry a very sharp knife with the strongest available lock. ^^

It's funny how companies tell you that they have the strongest lock that can hold xxx amount of pounds while in reality, you can close them with bare hand pressure. What a joke. The compression lock from Spyderco is such a strong lock, that it doesn't take much to unlock it.

This isn't even hard use:
https://youtu.be/oWDPX9ij7QM?t=8m35s

I will never buy overpriced paper cutters. When I buy a folding knife I don't want to first think about what I can cut/do with it without damaging it. A knife with a lock has no use for me when the smallest possible force on the blade unlocks it during work. That's not a lock. I tend to like tools that don't break or fall to pieces easily when used a little rougher if necessary. For someone who likes to open letters and want a very sharp toothpick with finger nail cleaning option the Para 2 is a great choice. You may even be able to cut harder wood with it. But I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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MisterXY said:
It's for education and information. Till now everybody could see that CS locks are the strongest when compared to the knives already tested. And if you would watch all videos, you would have known that they test also their knives till they break.

https://youtu.be/gTt4sYrP1dA?t=24m44s

But you can keep on hating and cry like a baby about how CS is doing it "only for marketing", while I will carry a very sharp knife with the strongest available lock. ^^

It's funny how companies tell you that they have the strongest lock that can hold xxx amount of pounds while in reality, you can close them with bare hand pressure. What a joke. The compression lock from Spyderco is such a strong lock, that it doesn't take much to unlock it.

This isn't even hard use:
https://youtu.be/oWDPX9ij7QM?t=8m35s

I will never buy overpriced paper cutters. When I buy a folding knife I don't want to first think about what I can cut/do with it without damaging it. A knife with a lock has no use for me when the smallest possible force on the blade unlocks it during work. That's not a lock. I tend to like tools that don't break or fall to pieces easily when used a little rougher if necessary. For someone who likes to open letters and want a very sharp toothpick with finger nail cleaning option the Para 2 is a great choice. You may even be able to cut harder wood with it. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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I am not crying. You have a bad attitude towards discussions. So be it.
 
Freman Bloodglaive said:
If the handle isn't long enough to get a secure mount then they don't go to 4" true. On the other hand, multiplying the weight by 1/3 to get the torque experienced isn't that hard.
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Agreed that the math isn't hard, but the problem is that first, they don't always report the actual distance from the pivot and second that while doing the math is an option only people who have actually considered this and realized the issue would bother. My issue is that saying it held "x" pounds truly is a meaningless measurement and instead they should report the torque experienced so that all members of the audience get a meaningful measurement.

Just to drive this home, I'm not expecting cold steel to make all these improvements and I'm not saying their current method is bad, I'm just saying that there are easy improvements that could be made. Reporting in torque would be one of them just because that really is the measurement we care about because you are right, they can't always use 4" and like you said it isn't hard to calculate so why not report it? One thing I can't do watching this on youtube is go and measure the distance to the pivot myself, if I could I would. Same thing with breaking both knives, then we get a true measurement for the cold steel knife as well as the competitor.
 
AF said:
Looking forward to the compression lock test!
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I don't want to derail my own thread, but I can't help myself here... if I could choose a lineup of knives to test they would be:

Spyderco ATR (stainless or titanium, don't know which would be stronger...)
Spyderco Lil' Temperance (supposedly the strongest knife they've ever made? I think a lil temperance 2 is in the works currently)
Spyderco Gunting (another MBC rated spyderco)
Benchmade Adamas
Buck Marksman
SOG Tomcat
Extrema Ratio RAO (probably couldn't be beat)

Those would be the best competition for the tri-ad lock. How would Cold Steel match up?
 
The RAO's lock doesn't seem that strong compared to the blade also doesn't seem to self adjust and would probably show blade play early on.
Just guessing and can't wait to see the real test.
 
I've read through the thread and just want to give my input as a prospective customer. I find the videos entertainment but definitely not anywhere near scientific. they also do make me stay away from cold steel knives as I find them very gimmicky. appreciate Mr Demko's input, but really what's the harm of destroying your cold steel knife when the cost is minimal to the company. We're not saying it's going to kill them company financially.

I trust all the major manufacturers to have strong locks. They've all been very respectful with how they portray the strength of their locks.

And I don't get the mindset that some people were discussing to have a blood bath between major manufacturers. So many of the great knives we have to choose from over the last few years were a product of collaborating not fighting between companies. But when you choose to have the kind of advertising that cold steel does I guess that's the result that the mindset of customers is to want vengeance?
 
Yo Mama said:
I've read through the thread and just want to give my input as a prospective customer. I find the videos entertainment but definitely not anywhere near scientific. they also do make me stay away from cold steel knives as I find them very gimmicky. appreciate Mr Demko's input, but really what's the harm of destroying your cold steel knife when the cost is minimal to the company. We're not saying it's going to kill them company financially.

I trust all the major manufacturers to have strong locks. They've all been very respectful with how they portray the strength of their locks.

And I don't get the mindset that some people were discussing to have a blood bath between major manufacturers. So many of the great knives we have to choose from over the last few years were a product of collaborating not fighting between companies. But when you choose to have the kind of advertising that cold steel does I guess that's the result that the mindset of customers is to want vengeance?
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Why would we want vengeance? Personally, I just want evidence, regardless of the company in question. 90% of what we 'know' about our hobby is anecdotal evidence at best and pure hearsay at worst. These tests are a far cry from scientific, but I've not seen any better comparative testing of literally any aspect of a knife come from a manufacturer or anyone other than an enthusiast.

Right now companies are selling knives based mostly on what they should be capable of on paper. I'd like to see a lot more data on how they actually perform in various situations and most companies are loathe to do that. Cold Steel is not my favorite manufacturer, nor do I currently own many of their knives, but I appreciate them contributing at least some evidence to the discussion.
 
MisterXY said:
Why? Because I expressed my opinion?
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No. Im good with varying opinions...always have been always will be.

Sorry that you took offense to me calling a spade a spade. Doesn't matter anyways......
 
For those of you that think no other manufacturer has anything close to this let me just bring up that spyderco and benchmade have been doing this for a long time. Spyderco has been doing this for over 10 years. Spyderco also breaks there own knives to actually establish and provide failure points and they gather the data in torque. They also aren't afraid to call some of their own knives light duty because while it might be shocking for some to hear, some knives are stronger than others.

Here is a great explanation from Sal:

"First of all, Spyderco has set up our own in-house standards on lock strength to provide our own parameters for manufacturing.

We have established an in house test that breaks knives and records the break. We get a graph and numerical results of the break.

A knife is put into a vise and a probe applies pressure to the handle. The distance from the pivot pin to the probe is measured in inches. This is the leverage arm. If the probe takes 100 lbs of pressure to break the lock and the probe is 3 inches from the pivot, then the amount of force is measured as; "3 inches times 100 lbs equals 300 inch lbs of force to break the lock (or blade or ?).

We then established a standard for our own knives. We decided that we would use the inch lbs of force to break the lock times the length of the blade to establish thresh holds.

25 inch/lbs of force for every inch of blade length would be considered a "light duty service". That means that a 2" blade needs to hold 50 inch/lbs of force to meet the "light duty service" requirement.

50 inch/lbs of force per inch of blade would be "medium duty service". This means that a 2" blade times 50 inch/lbs of force equals a minimum of 100 inch/lbs of force to break the lock.

"heavy duty service" is 100 inch/lbs of force per inch of blade is required to break the lock. This means that a 2" blade times 100 inch/lbs of force equals 200 inch/lbs of force is required to break the lock.


MBC is 200 inch/lbs of force is required for every inch of blade length to break the lock. This means that a 2" blade times 200 inch/lbs of force equals 400 inch/lbs of force is required to break the lock.

This is not intended for any other knife companies or custom makers. It is our own standard that we test to with every model in every shipment or run in our own facility.

I hope that helps.

sal"

Regarding the reporting of the data, they only advertise their MBC rated knives, here is Sal's explanation:

"We've not made a list. Most are not really interested. We do it for our own peaceof mind. It is important not to cut the hand that feeds you.

Basically, the FRN pieces will be Medium and heavy. SS pieces are ususally in the heavy duty range. The Very heavy duty will be pieces ike the Gunting, Yojimbo, Chinook, Manix, Lil Temperance, etc.

Light duty pieces will be the smaller pieces, Kiwi, Ladybug,etc.

Maybe someday?

sal"
 
I must confess I dont own any CS folders right now. I have quite a few fixed blades though. I do think the other manufacturers have always held a bit of an edge over them in the folder dept, but with the new steels etc, that gap has narrowed quite a bit. I would like to see a flat ground stonewashed Recon 1 myself. That would be a helluva knife. Perhaps next year?
 
The clip point Voyager is probably as close as you'll ever see to that.

My Tuff Lite will support 180 pounds, two and a half inches from the pivot, for a rating of 450 inch pounds. That puts it solidly in Spyderco's heavy duty category.
 
Freman Bloodglaive said:
The clip point Voyager is probably as close as you'll ever see to that.

My Tuff Lite will support 180 pounds, two and a half inches from the pivot, for a rating of 450 inch pounds. That puts it solidly in Spyderco's heavy duty category.
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Just to be clear I'm not saying that cold steels knives aren't tough, they obviously are extremely strong. I'm just showing that other companies also do testing and that Spyderco's in particular is far more scientific and provides way better data.

But see, your tuff lite example is perfect and now we can compare it to a whole range of knives. at 180 in-lbs per inch of blade length it is solidly in the heavy duty category but falls below the MBC/Very Heavy Duty category so in theory any MBC rated Spyderco would be stronger.
 
The problem with that is that Spyderco's Martial Blade Craft does not guarantee a strong lock, it guarantees you're getting a knife designed for some sort of melee use.

The list on Spyderco's website shows numerous knives in the MBC series, some are fixed blades, some are folders like the Matriarch, which are no stronger than the Endura (I have one of each).

From this webpage Sal lists some of the knives that make the MBC rating, like the discontinued Chinook and Gunting, and the Lil' Temperance which can now only be found as a copy in Navy's catalogue as the K607.

What the MBC rating may have implied in 2001 is not necessarily true in 2015.
 
Fire_Brand said:
Just to be clear I'm not saying that cold steels knives aren't tough, they obviously are extremely strong. I'm just showing that other companies also do testing and that Spyderco's in particular is far more scientific and provides way better data.

But see, your tuff lite example is perfect and now we can compare it to a whole range of knives. at 180 in-lbs per inch of blade length it is solidly in the heavy duty category but falls below the MBC/Very Heavy Duty category so in theory any MBC rated Spyderco would be stronger.
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I hear you, and I wasn't trying at all to imply other companies did not do their due diligence. But they don't release it. I would absolutely love to see the charts that Sypderco made on lock strengths and the CATRA testing that I'm certain they do. But until they let consumers see it, we're still buying based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay.
 
Freman Bloodglaive said:
The problem with that is that Spyderco's Martial Blade Craft does not guarantee a strong lock, it guarantees you're getting a knife designed for some sort of melee use.

The list on Spyderco's website shows numerous knives in the MBC series, some are fixed blades, some are folders like the Matriarch, which are no stronger than the Endura (I have one of each).

From this webpage Sal lists some of the knives that make the MBC rating, like the discontinued Chinook and Gunting, and the Lil' Temperance which can now only be found as a copy in Navy's catalogue as the K607.

What the MBC rating may have implied in 2001 is not necessarily true in 2015.
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I definitely can't say what they are doing now but I would guess that their "very heavy duty" category would still mean the same thing if they still use that. Still pretty interesting about the martial blade craft category, it definitely seems doubtful that all of those would into the "very heavy duty" category.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I hear you, and I wasn't trying at all to imply other companies did not do their due diligence. But they don't release it. I would absolutely love to see the charts that Sypderco made on lock strengths and the CATRA testing that I'm certain they do. But until they let consumers see it, we're still buying based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay.
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Aren't there lots of Benchmade videos where they test strength to failure and post the numbers?
 
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