Lock wear

[ethies]

I just got my first serious knife (military) and love it. I had some hesitation as it is a liner lock and I've read mixed reviews of liners as a whole, but if it passed Mr. Stamp's reviews I figured it must be pretty tough. I've been working on learning to deploy it quickly, but had heard that forcefull openings will deteriorate the lock's strength. Is this true in all knives and/or more specifically the military?

 

[Artfully Martial]

I flick liner locks all day long and the locks work fine. My current theory about liner and frame locks is that if they lock up consistently well now, they're probably indefinitely good to go. Liner wear even in its most extreme forms doesn't seem to cause even minor problems, if my M16 is an example, although seeing it go all the way across bothers me for some reason--I guess in my mind it SHOULD cause problems, but it nonetheless doesn't.

Just check the engagement/lockup...that's the crucial part.

 

[cerulean]

I had a Military that I abused pretty consistently for five or six years. It didn’t just get flicked open; I would frequently use inertial openings to slam it open. The lockup never changed and always remained rock solid.

IMO, it would be silly to presume that all liner locks would hold up under those conditions. However, if it’s well made, I think a liner lock certainly can withstand a lot of wear.

 

[orthogonal1]

After reading the forum for a while, taking Mr. Stamps experience and that of others into consideration, I borrowed a Military for a month before buying one. Why so much dithering? The liner-lock.

In the Military, I trust it for EDC use. Now that I got my own (that I have spine wacked hard and rythmic, twisted, etc.), I'm hoping to see how it holds up. I expect it to be durable and safe.

 

[Hair]

A lot of people don't trust liner locks. But a lot of people also don't trust American cars. When you look at the facts and data, American cars are just as reliable as Japanese cars, and tend to be more reliable than European cars. The distrust of American cars is based on public conception and stereotypes, not facts. I believe the same is true of liner locks.

There are a lot of bad liner locks out there, and they have caused a general distrust of liner locks in the knife-buying public's minds. But a quality knife with a liner lock can be very strong and safe. There is a reason why so many respected and knowledgable knife makers, designers, and companies use them.

I think some people have had bad experiences with liner locks, and so them distrust them all. I find this sad. I think a lock should be judged on its own merit. Not only should each knife's lock be judged on its own from model to model, but even from knife to knife within the same model. One Military might lock up perfectly, while another might be less strong.

So since it is silly to generalize about a particular model, I think it is extra silly to generalize about a lock-type that is used in countless models and by countless companies.

I wouldn't trust the liner lock on an Mtech. But I think my Al Mar SERE 2000 is pretty stout, despite having a G-10 scale next to its otherwise respectable frame lock.

 

[ethies]

Yeah, I was trying to NOT open the can of worms about liner locks again. I was really wondering, since I've heard of snap openings weakening locks, if anyone had experiance with which kind of lock suffers at all/ more/ most of the different styles. I agree that it is silly to say that all individual knifes are exactly like all of the knifes of the same model, and even more so to say they are exactly like knives of the same lock style. That being said I think that each kind of lock, being mechanically different, has its advantages and disadvantages. I have heard that liners MAY be prone to folding under torsion and possible white knuckling (NOT LOOKING TO DEBATE THIS). I accept that part of owning a knife is looking after its action to make certain it remains safe. That is why I'm asking if certain locks have an affinity for wear from rapid deployments. I appreciate your help and advice, I'm just trying to make sure this thread doesn't go down an ugly path.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The security of liner locks was mainly investigated by Joe Talmade / Steve Harvey, this wasn't checking one or two locks, it was based on years of checking liner locks from multiple production companies and custom makers and seeing them fail with a much higher frequency than other lock types. Those two guys have always maintained that it is possible to build liner locks which don't have those inherent problems, however the consistency is very low. One of the strongest arguements against liner locks is the *lack* of statements from the makers/companies to refute the testing, instead it is usually called abusive which in fact reinforces the opinion that the lock is sub-standard when it isn't abusive to other types.

-Cliff

 

[Helle]

The only time I've had a liner lock fail is with misuse ie prying up with a BM 700s. Can anyone say paper towel and duct tape.
This is before you started to see liners reset into the scales more like a military or a AFCK.
As far as constantly using your hole to open that bad boy FAST out of the pocket I can't speak for the military but I've got a AFCK 800S that has been opened like that only God knows how many times since the day of purchase
witch was with in a month or two of there original release and never ever ever had a problem with lock up.

Helle

 

[STR]

Cliff is right to a large extent. But there are a lot of manufacturers everywhere producing liner locks. There are so many that there is no way to tell the quality of some, particularly the ones made cheaply by companies that don't necessarily cover them like those in Taiwan, China and even some cheap ones made here as well as in Japan.

As for the lock on the Military. That lock is stainless not titanium. As a result the face of that lock will wear much slower than an equal size/thickness piece of titanium would. I don't think you need to worry about flipping it open at all. Have at it. Spyderco's warranty is second to none but truthfully for normal wear that knife should out live most people that own one.

STR

 

[gud4u]

My old 440V Military has a lot of miles on it, and the lock-lever is still only about 40% of the way across the blade butt.

My Buck/Strider Tarani is much younger, but the lock-lever position is still as-delivered.

An old Outdoor Edge Magna has a thicker locking-lever than those, and is as-new.

I have as much confidence in these liner-locking folders as I do my axis-lock and back-lock folders.

 

[STR]

I have as much confidence in these liner-locking folders as I do my axis-lock and back-lock folders.

Yes. I think your feelings are pretty common actually. Most people I know in the knife world, many of them knife people, meaning they either make knives themselves, sell knives or embellish or modify them in some other way for hobbies or as a job or just generally collect all kinds of knives and they don't have any problems with liner locks at all.

In fact lock backs seem to bring up more lack of trust issues if you ask me but hardly anyone picks on them. Lock backs are trusted more widely than the liner lock or so it seems and that is somewhat funny in a way to me. Don't get me wrong I've said for years the lock back is my fave. This is mainly because I grew up with them and have carried that style more than any other but at least with a liner lock you can see at a glance how much of the lock is on the blade and get an idea of where you stand with it as far as security. With the lock backs you have to trust that the maker or company that makes them did their part correctly; that it is biting in deep enough to do the job it is meant to do. This is especially true with the cheap ones mass produced by no name companies and even some good name ones.

STR

 

[cbxer55]

And do not forget that many liner lock knives, such as CRKTs now have the LAWKS safety. Think of it as a lock for the lock! I just bought my first CRKT, a M-16. Even though I am leary of the blade material, it appears to be a well constructed knife. With the LAWKS safety, I think it will never fail.

I have a Spyderco military that was purchased back in 93 or 94, when they first came out. It is still, today, the excellent knife it was when new. Lock-up is great and it has never failed.

I have one or two cheap knives, that when purchased new, the liner just barely engaged the blade spine. After repeated slams, the liner now goes completely across the spine to the other side. Granted these are cheap chinese knock-offs bought just to see if that could happen to a liner lock. It is a metal on metal wear area. Slamming usually causes the liner to move further across the blade thus starting wear where it may not have occured previously. Obviously assisted openers always slam the blade and the few Kershaws I have have not shown appreciable wear to date. I have one of the first Kershaw Ken Onion knives, the Multi task Knife which was purchased in 2000 or 2001 when they first came out. It is still perfect and the liner has not gotten to the half way point yet.

If it is a quality knife it will probably outlast your lifetime, no matter what lock type it has.

CBXer55
Oklahoma City

 

[Joe Talmadge]

A lock that is sound shouldn't be compromised by some light flicking. If it gets damaged by that, you're better off getting rid of the knife anyway, rather than walking around with a delicate lock that you just don't know about.

We've had these liner lock vs the world arguments for years, of course. Cliff is right in that I feel that the format is exceedingly difficult to consistently do reliably, and even the best liner lock makers put out knives that I would see fail at way unacceptable rates. Yes, of course, any lock format made by a cheap company will be junk, and yes, of course, you can find bad examples of even the best lock formats, because no company is perfect. The problem with the liner lock, in the opinion of the many people who distrust the format, is just that the percentage of losers is just way higher than other formats, even from the best companies.

I remember back when there was exactly one person on the net who tested and distrusted liner locks, Mike Swaim (ironically, he was and remains one of the best and most insightful knife posters on the internet). From one, over the years as people tested, the number of people who distrust the format has grown positively huge, based on the simple observation of how many of these things fail simple tests or in real life versus any other format. Liner lock versus lockback, not including the cheapest foreign samples of either? No contest, lockback is rock solid in comparison, even with its faults.

I don't think STR or I will change each others' minds, but that's my view if you care.

Joe

 

[TFin04]

Anyone who has a liner fail of them (from a quality knife) is misusing it in my opinion.

My dad, grandfather and even myself as a young child used knives that were just basic slipjoints. Crazy, not once did I ever have a problem with those.

Now you add locks into the mix, and people are saying they are unsafe? If you need a knife to do more than what a quality liner lock can handle, you should be carrying a fixed blade.

80% of the locking knives I own are liner locks, and they all work just fine. There is a range of companies, sizes, and styles in that mix as well.

Just my view, I dont see you having any problems with the liner lock. I never have.

 

[STR]

I don't think STR or I will change each others' minds, but that's my view if you care.

Actually Joe, you have had quite an impact on my view of knives and in particular the liner lock. Contrary to how it must appear at times due to my stubborness I do take what you say to heart on many issues. I still make liner locks and recently started making frame locks just because of the education I've gained from stuff posted by you as well as others on their advantages. Also I am much more in tune now with what to look for and how to test all my knives, not just liner locks before they leave my shop. Using stuff I've learned right here I can make sure they are going to be reliable and strong for the user. I don't hesitate to mostly give thanks to that "testing method" education to guys like you and Steve and also from Cliff.

As you recall I thanked you for finally swaying me to the Axis lock when I bought my first one a while back.

With that said, I'm not saying you changed my mind completely regarding these tests and conclusions so don't let your head swell too much from the above praises. I still believe that when someone already has a set opinion or view and goes out to prove that something is so from the word go all the while with that opinion in the forefront of their mindset that it should be no surprise to anyone when they get the result they already predicted and expected.

Once a set opinion is made it is no longer possible to be objective in other words. However, it doesn't mean that the tests are not educational or even right or wrong. I just believe they show certain weaknesses that may or may not happen given certain movements while using the knife. (Many of which people never do anyway from what I've gathered) Bottom line is that most people get by fine with their liner locks. I would rate the gents knife liner lock as the weakest type lock but I could have one I've carried for years with no problem mailed off to you or Steve or Cliff just to be told it is not any good. What does that really prove? Does it prove a guy carries a bad knife for years and that he must not use it? No. Does it prove that it can be beat up or does it prove there is a problem with the lock? You don't have to answer. I'm really not trying to start a long off topic thread. Just pointing out my observations.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Anyone who has a liner fail of them (from a quality knife) is misusing it in my opinion.

My dad, grandfather and even myself as a young child used knives that were just basic slipjoints.

Did your basic slip joints have 1/4" sabre ground blades made out of tool steel and be promoted by the companies for tactical, fighting and very heavy use such as batoning? This is one of the reasons why many people have little respect for the lock because people argue it should be treated like a slip joint. How can you possible take this viewpoint when manufacturers promote locks with 1000 in.lbs break points. Did anyone promote a slip joint in that fashion?

But there are a lot of manufacturers everywhere producing liner locks. There are so many that there is no way to tell the quality of some, particularly the ones made cheaply by companies that don't necessarily cover them like those in Taiwan, China and even some cheap ones made here as well as in Japan.

The arguement against them was not based on evaluation of the locks in that class of knives, it was on high end customs and production companies like Benchmade and comparing the rate and nature of problems to other lock types from the same class of knives.

-Cliff

 

[TFin04]

Did your basic slip joints have 1/4" sabre ground blades made out of tool steel and be promoted by the companies for tactical, fighting and very heavy use such as batoning? This is one of the reasons why many people have little respect for the lock because people argue it should be treated like a slip joint. How can you possible take this viewpoint when manufacturers promote locks with 1000 in.lbs break points. Did anyone promote a slip joint in that fashion?

If you're going to trust your life to a "tactical, fighter, heavy use" knife, wouldn't you want it to be a fixed blade? I know I would.

I see your point, mine is that I think the whole lock debate is wayyyyy overhyped. Most people who buy and carry sub 4" knife (which most of the folders being discussed are) do not need them to hold 1000lbs on the lock.

 

[Joe Dirt]

A lot of people don't trust liner locks. But a lot of people also don't trust American cars. When you look at the facts and data, American cars are just as reliable as Japanese cars, and tend to be more reliable than European cars. The distrust of American cars is based on public conception and stereotypes, not facts.

I disagree. First of all I have had American cars and Japanese cars. The American cars were all in the shop more than the Japanese cars. They also had more trouble at lower miles. On two different American cars I put almost twice as much money into the car as I have for Japanese cars. I'm talking thousands of dollars more per year. For this reason I will no longer buy an American car. I tried for a long time but the American car manufacturers failed me too often. Now, I'm happy with Honda and Toyota.

I think some people have had bad experiences with liner locks, and so them distrust them all. I find this sad. I think a lock should be judged on its own merit.

I agree but I had a problem with my Benchmade 910 under white knuckling. I think they build about the best liner locks in the business. So why would I want to ever buy another liner lock again? If Benchmade cannot do it right why would I let someone else try? I then tested the 880BT that I have after the 910 and it also does the same thing as the 910. It gets loose and sometimes even allows closure of the blade. Who makes a better liner lock that Benchmade? Tell me and I'll go try one.

 

[Hair]

I disagree. First of all I have had American cars and Japanese cars. The American cars were all in the shop more than the Japanese cars. They also had more trouble at lower miles. On two different American cars I put almost twice as much money into the car as I have for Japanese cars. I'm talking thousands of dollars more per year. For this reason I will no longer buy an American car. I tried for a long time but the American car manufacturers failed me too often. Now, I'm happy with Honda and Toyota.

With all due respect, your experience is so limited that it means jack ****. My Dad has had poor experience with Japanese cars and no trouble with American cars. So his experience cancels yours out.

Your arguement is exactly what I am talking about. You cannot judge an entire nation's cars, or an entire locktype from experience with a few examples. Your sample size is woefully small.

Studies have been done on intial quality, number of defects per model, time spent in shop, and number of miles before overhaul, and American cars are neck and neck with Japanese cars. This trumps your itty, bitty amount of experience with only a small handful of cars.

Also, different countries had had good and bad times. In the 80s, American cars were at a low. If you have had bad experiences with American cars from the 80s and even into the 90s, and are using that experience to judge American cars made today, or before, you are making a very silly mistake. Japanese cars have also had low periods, as have European cars.

If you will not buy an American car, it is your loss and your silly mistake. I try to judge each car on its own merit. The nation lines it happens to be designed or built in don't mean anything.

In fact, many Japanese cars are designed by Americans and built by Americans. Yet somehow they magically are more reliable. There's a reason the amount of defects per hundred cars is virtually the same for American and Japanese cars.

The same ignorant reasoning that you use is the reason the public sees the Dodge Stealth as an unreliable, gas-guzzling, poor-handling American car, while the Mitsubishi 3000GT is a reliable, economical, sporty Japanese car. Never mind that they are identical mechanically.

If I sound like a biased American car fan, well, I am not. I do like American cars, but no more than Japanese cars. I love the Corvette, but I also love the NSX. My favorite cars are small, light, bare-bones sports cars. So while American makes some examples of this, they aren't very common. My favorite is England.

I am just going by the facts, not ignorant prejudice based on limited experience. The facts about American car reliability doesn't change whether I am an American car fan or not. I knew a Mexican that was good at soccer but bad at math. That must mean they all are, right?

I agree but I had a problem with my Benchmade 910 under white knuckling. I think they build about the best liner locks in the business. So why would I want to ever buy another liner lock again? If Benchmade cannot do it right why would I let someone else try? I then tested the 880BT that I have after the 910 and it also does the same thing as the 910. It gets loose and sometimes even allows closure of the blade. Who makes a better liner lock that Benchmade? Tell me and I'll go try one.

Have you tried other BM liner locks? Just because yours had a problem doesn't mean most do. Closing under white knuckling is more a problem with the overall design of the knife and how it fits your hands than a poorly done liner lock. In other words, the same lock and tang on another knife (with a different shape) might not have the same problem. So try a BM liner lock other than a 910 and see if the problem remains.

And, IMO, Al Mar and Lone Wolf do liner locks better than BM. There are also a multitude of custom knife makers that use liner locks, but I assume you meant production knives. I think BM does them well, but not the best.

BTW, sorry if I sound like a jerk. I have nothing against you and just find that jerkism gets my point across.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you're going to trust your life to a "tactical, fighter, heavy use" knife, wouldn't you want it to be a fixed blade?

In some places fixed blades are illegal, so it is a matter of choosing the most optimal folding knife. In general if you can carry a fixed blade they are superior to folding knives for a multitude of reasons besides lock security.

Most people who buy and carry sub 4" knife (which most of the folders being discussed are) do not need them to hold 1000lbs on the lock.

If a maker/manufacturer promoted a high end steel but delivered AUS-4A should people not hold them to task simply because that is enough for tha majority of people?

The tactical folding knives are promoted for very heavy use by many, they are certainly not designed to be light use knives, unlike the slip joints with 1/16" blades which are 1/2" wide with very light grinds. There are lots of folders with blades much heavier than many small fixed blades.

In general the main problems with locks, in particular liner locks, tend to be failures in regard to security not raw strength and thus the forces applied are really low as in cutting cardboard or weeds. The locks have a tendancy to release under vastly lower forces than is necessary to break them.

It is a consistency problem, the nature of the blade doesn't match the security of the lock which is often very different from the strength.

-Cliff