Lock wear

In general, I am not a huge fan of liner locks. I've found many of them to be less than exceptional in terms of security. But...... The Spyderco Military is definitely the exception to the rule. The Military happens to be my favorite folder of all time. I've used and abused two of them, which are currently is use by an LEO friend of mine and myself, and they have never so much as thought of failing. My father-in-law carries one also, and it locks up perfectly. The nested liner lock design on the Military is very good. I'm not saying that every Military locks up perfectly, because I haven't handled every Military in production, but the design and execution of all I've handled have been sensational. It's the only liner lock that I trust to heavy duty work.
 
Hair said:
With all due respect, your experience is so limited that it means jack ****. My Dad has had poor experience with Japanese cars and no trouble with American cars. So his experience cancels yours out.

Your arguement is exactly what I am talking about. You cannot judge an entire nation's cars, or an entire locktype from experience with a few examples. Your sample size is woefully small.

Studies have been done on intial quality, number of defects per model, time spent in shop, and number of miles before overhaul, and American cars are neck and neck with Japanese cars. This trumps your itty, bitty amount of experience with only a small handful of cars.

Also, different countries had had good and bad times. In the 80s, American cars were at a low. If you have had bad experiences with American cars from the 80s and even into the 90s, and are using that experience to judge American cars made today, or before, you are making a very silly mistake. Japanese cars have also had low periods, as have European cars.

If you will not buy an American car, it is your loss and your silly mistake. I try to judge each car on its own merit. The nation lines it happens to be designed or built in don't mean anything.

In fact, many Japanese cars are designed by Americans and built by Americans. Yet somehow they magically are more reliable. There's a reason the amount of defects per hundred cars is virtually the same for American and Japanese cars.

The same ignorant reasoning that you use is the reason the public sees the Dodge Stealth as an unreliable, gas-guzzling, poor-handling American car, while the Mitsubishi 3000GT is a reliable, economical, sporty Japanese car. Never mind that they are identical mechanically.

If I sound like a biased American car fan, well, I am not. I do like American cars, but no more than Japanese cars. I love the Corvette, but I also love the NSX. My favorite cars are small, light, bare-bones sports cars. So while American makes some examples of this, they aren't very common. My favorite is England.

I am just going by the facts, not ignorant prejudice based on limited experience. The facts about American car reliability doesn't change whether I am an American car fan or not. I knew a Mexican that was good at soccer but bad at math. That must mean they all are, right?


Have you tried other BM liner locks? Just because yours had a problem doesn't mean most do. Closing under white knuckling is more a problem with the overall design of the knife and how it fits your hands than a poorly done liner lock. In other words, the same lock and tang on another knife (with a different shape) might not have the same problem. So try a BM liner lock other than a 910 and see if the problem remains.

And, IMO, Al Mar and Lone Wolf do liner locks better than BM. There are also a multitude of custom knife makers that use liner locks, but I assume you meant production knives. I think BM does them well, but not the best.

BTW, sorry if I sound like a jerk. I have nothing against you and just find that jerkism gets my point across.


Hair,

Then answer me this:

Why are there no American cars in the Consumer Reports Top 10 this year then? It's surely not just me having poor experience with American cars. Plus, you're saying that I have problems with 3 different American cars and I'm supposed to continue to buy them and have confidence that the next one will be different? Yeah....no.

Lastly, I didn't think you were being a Jerk at all :) I don't mind a good discussion on the forums. :D
 
My problem is, while I've had cheap locks of all descriptions fail me, I've had a number of top of the line linerlocks bite me. When I've had failure from a single lock type in knives by Spyderco, Benchmade, and AG Russell (and Outdoor Edge and CRKT and Timberline and Boker and - well, you get the point) I start thinking, "you know, maybe I don't want any more of those".

Certainly, there ARE good liner locks - I have some Benchmades that have never failed me. But would I order a new liner lock knife from a catalog?

No.

Buy it if I could play with it first?

Maybe. Can I spinewhack it and whiteknuckle before I pay for it?

It's just not worth the trouble, to me. There are so damn many great knives without linerlocks, I can skip the ones with it.

I probably am shorting myself by not owning a SERE 2000, a Military, and a Gravitator. Maybe if I get to where I own all the Axis, compression, backlock, etc knives I want, I'll go back and pick them up.

Maybe.
 
I don't feel people are addressing what I consider to be the main drawback of the liner lock--usability. There are solid liner locks out there, most certainly. I have several of them, and in my opinion, there are a ton more where that came from.

So why don't I buy them anymore?

Usability--there's no way the liner lock is as easy to use as an axis, bb or compression lock. I would personally debate that they are easier (and safer) to use then lockbacks, but that's another argument entirely. Point being, given the option, why buy something that is less easy to use? It certainly isn't any safer than an axis or compression lock (although again, I would debate that there are plenty of them that can handle any amount of my abuse). It's not as easy to open or close, it's not as fun and it certainly doesn't have any gadget factor. There doesn't seem to be a price reduction either. Militaries and Nomads cost just as much as comparable axis locks, compression locks, etc.

Now, there are some designs I really like only offered in liner lock, and I'm fine with buying them, but I would much rather it be a compression lock for the reasons above.

I'm sure your military will be great.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Point being, given the option, why buy something that is less easy to use?

Less easy? What?

Both can be operated with the thumb of whatever hand the knife is in. Both can close the blade safely in under a second. I dont see how an axis is any easier than a liner lock.

Out of curiosity, what type of tests are you guys using when you see these liner locks fail? Either I have some exceptional liner knives, or I just simply dont use them as hard as you guys do. I will admit my every day tasks that my knives get is light use, but I do have some larger knives such as a CRKT M16 I take with me camping, hunting, etc. It has seen everything from opening a can of beens to cutting wood for kindling to gutting a deer. It hasn't failed me yet.
 
Yeah, if you haven't read some of the reviews that site liner lock failures some of this might sound kinda extreme. Many of the tests are designed to show the most extreme use of the knife. Cliff stuck the blade into the middle of a 1x4 of pine and twisted it to split the board. I would never consider doing something like this with a knife, but its nice to know where the limits of the knife's capabilites are.

Also, I don't know how we got on cars but if you listen to Consumer Reports you're nuts. If CR reviewed knives they'd say that Buck and Gerber were the best knives in the world because they sell the most units.
 
The axis lock is MUCH easier to use than any liner lock, ever. The only time liner locks can compete is with AO or flipper action. The axis locks are smoother than any other kind of lock (excluding similar locks, like BBs), period. If you get the sweet spot on the torx screw, you can hold the lock down and the blade will swing freely, with 0 resistance, and still have no lateral play.

The axis flick is fast and easy to learn (holding the axis lock down and wrist flicking), but even normal flicks are enhanced by the smoothness of the axis.

And then there's closing. You can't close a liner lock as fast as I can an axis lock. You just can't. In fact, I think of my axis locks as assisted opening AND closing. If I hold the knife tang down and closed, pull the lock, it falls into the open position. Hold it open with the blade slightly leaning and it just falls closed. Nevermind that I can flick it closed too.

I'll bet I can open AND close my minigrip 2 times in one second.

But it gets better. They lack any additional techniques to keep the blade closed--it just sucks the blade in and holds it there. This means it's safer in your pocket--now, I have no trouble with my ball detents at all, but they provide more force to open and will eventually wear out. Furthermore, if they do open a centimeter in your pocket, it will stay there (while you reach for it), as opposed to the axis which would pull it back in.

And it costs the same as comparable material liner locks. And it's stronger.

Don't get me wrong, there ARE defenses for the liner locks, my favorite being that if they have a blow through design, they're super easy to keep clean--but that's also a benefit of the superior compression lock, which is stronger and easier to use also.

I could go on (might later), but I have to fix my GF's glasses with my SAK.
 
TFin04 said:
....Out of curiosity, what type of tests are you guys using when you see these liner locks fail? Either I have some exceptional liner knives, or I just simply dont use them as hard as you guys do.....


I don't use any extreme tests. I simply gripped my 910 as hard as I could like I was holding a hammer. I figure this would happen if I were ever to find myself in a self defense situation. That's when it would fail. I could close the blade with my other hand sometimes and other times it would be loose. There were NO times that it was still stable under a hard grip (white knuckling).
 
Artfully Martial said:
And then there's closing. You can't close a liner lock as fast as I can an axis lock. You just can't.

And where does this split second difference in you closing your knife help you in your life?

My point here is that some of you guys take things to the extreme. I do admit that I like the Axis system better than a liner lock, but why in the world does closing your knife a split second faster than me get you all excited? :rolleyes:
 
For me the speed is nothing. I'm all about safety. Even if the Axis lock was more of a pain and slower I'd still want it due to safety. :)
 
I never made an argument that it was NEEDED--but I did make an argument that it was easier and faster. And apparently you agree with me now.

So now that we agree that it's both safer and easier to use, I suppose we can close this part of the discussion?

I'll bet it's not a split second either.

Furthermore, it's safer to close. no fingers in the way at any time.

Did I mention that they're truly ambidextrous too?

And they have spring redundancy.

White knuckling doesn't affect them.

I still EDC two liner locks and love them both. But in the lock category, they're going to lose to the axis every time. And compression locks too.
 
Joe Dirt said:
Why are there no American cars in the Consumer Reports Top 10 this year then? It's surely not just me having poor experience with American cars.
Well, let's just say that Consumer Reports has different opinions and results than JD Powers. Neither is right nor wrong, but having problems with American cars is not universal. My Dad is not the only one to have problems with Japanese cars either.

Joe Dirt said:
Plus, you're saying that I have problems with 3 different American cars and I'm supposed to continue to buy them and have confidence that the next one will be different? Yeah....no.
I would put it that way. I would put it this way: Judge a car on the car, not the country. Any given American-made car has nothing in common with the three you had. It is likely that certain Japanese cars are more similar (mechanically) and of equal reliability as the three American cars that gave you problems.

If you have had bad experiences with American cars, it is logical to be weary of them. But to swear them off does you no good. What if a car came out that was perfect for you and was the most reliable car on the market. What if it happened to be made and designed in America (just as many "Japanese" cars are)? You would miss out of it just because of your prejudice.

Prejudice is just a lazy short cut. It doesn't do you any good. I think it is better to do research and make buys based on the merit of the actual product, rather than falling back on your experience with products that are superficially similar.

My first car was a Dodge Neon. It had *TONS* of problems. My current car is a Dodge Neon SRT-4. What gives? Am I stupid to buy another Neon? No, because they are not the same. If I had sworn off Neons, or Dodge, or American cars, I would have missed out on the SRT-4, which it turns out is the perfect car for me. But because I did the research, I didn't miss out. The SRT-4 has a totally different engine, tranny, suspension, and braking system than the normal Neon. And the current normal Neon is totally different than the problematic first gen Neons. All that the SRT-4 shares with the unreliable first gen Neon is the name. The SRT-4 is actually one of the most stout, overbuilt cars on the road today. Period. If I was prejudice, I would assume the SRT-4 is unreliable like my old Neon. But because I did the research, I know that isn't true. Actually, the opposite is true, and I ended up buying an SRT-4 because it is one of the most reliable cars.

I am not saying the perfect car for you is an American car. But it might be. And it would be a shame for you to settle for something less perfect for you just because you wouldn't take a look at every model out there because of some bias you have. I am just saying look at everything available. Cadillac is supposedly one of the best brands (in terms of quality and reliability) right now, neck and neck with Lexus/Toyota. Aren't they worth a look? Or is the fact that they are an American company somehow undo all of the progress they have made?

Again, so many "Japanese" cars are designed and built in America, by Americans. The Japanese cars you trust are just as American as the American cars you had problems with. A Honda badge doesn't grant a car magical powers.

Joe Dirt said:
Lastly, I didn't think you were being a Jerk at all :) I don't mind a good discussion on the forums. :D
You didn't think I was being a jerk? :eek:
 
Hair,

OK. I'll not phrase it as American and Japanese anymore. I'll just say that Ford/Chevy suck and that I'm happy with Honda. :D

See how well you can argue symantecs? :D

Also, what's to say you wouldn't have been happier with a Honda Civic instead of your Neon? ;)
 
I know you asked that in jest, but I think I can make the answer short enough to not be annoying.

I bought the SRT-4 because I like the looks, that it is pretty bare-bones, and has great performance for the money.

The Civic Si and RSX Type-S are slower (and don't have better handling or brakes- actually slightly worse), IMO don't look as good, and I actually dislike the fact that they are more refined and have more gizmos.

I am into bare-bones sports cars like the Lotus Elise. I think the Miata isn't even spartan enough. But I need more cargo and passenger space than a true sports car has. The SRT-4 is like a stripped-down sports car with 4 doors and a trunk. The Civic and RSX are more like cheap, small luxury cars.

For someone that wants a smoother ride, less engine and tranny sound, and things like power seats, a Civic would be great. But I like my ride stiff as heck (better cornering), my engine and tranny to be ripping loud, and my steering wheel to be free of any buttons.

BTW, my sister has a previous-gen Civic. It has been reliable, but the fit and finish is surprising years behind my Neon and my Dad's Marauder. Her car is, and has always been, a total rattle-box. I know this is not true of all Civics and I have been in ones that didn't rattle so much, but I know it is not a fluke either as I have been in others that did.
 
cbxer55 said:
And do not forget that many liner lock knives, such as CRKTs now have the LAWKS safety. Think of it as a lock for the lock! I just bought my first CRKT, a M-16. Even though I am leary of the blade material, it appears to be a well constructed knife. With the LAWKS safety, I think it will never fail.

Doesn't it say a lot about CRKTs confidence in their own linerlocks when they introduce a second lock to make sure people don't get hurt when the first lock fails?

When you need a lock for the lock something must have gone very badly wrong, I reckon.

Hans
 
I think they're saying that although their liner locks are good, they are not invincible. You can use the conventional liner lock on the day to day basis and switch on LAWKS for chopping.

By the way, they're integrated now. I haven't used the new M16s yet, but I believe this old argument is now obsolete. Flick open the knife, two locks engage now. They act as one.

Of course, LAWKS doesn't really do anything since when people actually do hit the spine of the knife, the liner moves towards the other side (AWAY from the unlocked position). LAWKS exists to address paranoia, more to the point.

I guess it addresses liner bowing, if anything, but at least with regards to M16s, this is realistic impossibility.

Of course, all the arguments against liner locks magically disappear on framelocks. Isn't that weird?
 
Whoever has the SRT4 is thinking the best way. Thinking about companies is worthless. Even thinking about engines, transmissions, horsepower, etc, worthless.

Only real world performance counts for anything. However you measure it, reliability, quarter mile times, lateral grip, fuel efficiency....and I can absolutely promise you, you'll never figure out any of those things with numbers or car manufacturers. There are some trends, but there are plenty of surprises.

Use what works the best. The dodge now is nothing like the Dodge seven years ago, thank god, and while they still have a lot of work to do, and with the exception of the notable SRT-4, their stuff is outrageously expensive not to mention realllllly overweight, it's a big improvement. The old dodge was a big time product of DSM, lots of mitsubishi and chrysler part swapping. Modern dodge is more mercedes/chrysler part swapping. You can now get Mercedes engines in several Chryslers.

Not that I'm saying that's a good thing either--as I've established, names are meaningless. I'm only setting up the fact that the company has changed.

And yes, as a real life racecar driver (tm), I will confirm that an SRT4 would pwn an RSX or any other wannabe car. I personally think the SRT4 is rather hideous and I can't stand FWD, but ultimately, for 21k, you're simply not going to do any better in the performance line up.

Nonetheless, people interested in serious racing should use RWD or AWD. Had the SRT-4 been RWD, I'll bet you'd drop 2 tenths right there and have a big enhancement in fun and handling, and the gains became more and more exponentional the more horsepower you have. The fact that it IS fwd and pulls decent times must be a testament to its broad powerband, and this is yet another case where the horsepower looks deceptively low.

With the exception of the SRT-4, and the SRT4 does border this anyway, most of the competitors are just for children who buy the advertising and will never actually race. I'm always ready to spend another grand modifying my WRX, but why on earth should I? It's not as if I'm the fastest guy in the world, not by a long shot, but no one that actually races can even have the slightest hope of catching me. Had they spent their money on a Mustang GT, Evo, etc, or any number of reasonably priced reliable used cars, the story would be different.

But the forces of the universe protect those who buy decent cars by ensuring that every wannabe finds himself in the slowest of cars, many of these would quite literally be beaten by a Ford Taurus. Celicas, Civics, Integras, Neons, Scions, and yes, BMW z3 series (non M) and Porsche boxsters (non s). They just don't have a shot in hell.

The real challenge coming to racers in the next few years is the amount of money people are willing to drop on trucks and suvs. If you have 45+ thousand dollars to spend on a truck that can't handle and can't do truck things either, you can beat this guy's 20k SRT4. In a straight line of course. And weirdly enough, people all around seem to be picking these up--they cost as much or more than a Corvette, but their money goes to 500 horsepower factory race trucks. You can now buy a Jeep that pulls a mid 13 second quarter mile for 45k. That means one day I might have a close call against a Jeep. And it makes me cry.

Hopefully, this weird distribution of expenditures in cars (between poor stupid wannabe teenagers and extravagantly wealthy 20 somethings with security issues) will balance out.
 
Knives to cars.

Okay, then.

Liner-locks are OK, just test it for lock-up.

And, if you want fast and quick, drop your security issues and pick up a 10 grand motorcycle. 13 sec, what a turtle.
 
Until you get to the turns where you're laying your street bike over at a mere 120 mph. And try and hold on to me around the hairpin.

And in the real racing world where we can swap paint, you might run into some trouble.

There was a magazine article when the Evo first came to America. It completely owned a bike around the road course.

Don't get me wrong, I love bikes too, and they actually ARE that fast--although, I should also mention, that their drivers are NOT that fast. Last time I raced a guy on a bike I beat him. Not because I'm faster, not even remotely so, but he'd speed up and freak out. I guess these kids just get scared doing 150+ on their bike. Of course, when we're doing 225 mph in our Leigenfelter Corvette or Ruf 911 Turbo, I'm just betting that the draft we create will actually pull the bike off the road.

And again, in pro racing they're not that fast either. I can't recall the last 4 second bike I've seen...

But ultimately, you're right. You get a ton of performance for very little dollars. My brother builds bikes, and I do the cars. They're too much of a compromise though. I drive my race car every single day, in ice, snow, with five passengers, maybe pulling a hitch--oh, and off road. Did I mention my car is an off road race car, specifically?

I think for Joe Average, the cost of the bike isn't 10,000, it's 10,000 plus a decent reliable car.

One day though, I do plan on owning a few. They're ridiculously fun.
 
yeah guys like Gibernau and Rossi are really just afraid to go very fast :jerkit: Artfully Martial, what kind of racing do you do? At first I thought drag as you've mentioned 1/4 times, but then you mentioned hairpins and I thought you might do Sportscars, and then off road racing? What racing outfit are you with?
 
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