Lone Wolf - Ho-hum steel?

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srmd22

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Oct 19, 2009
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What is the deal with Lone Wolf still using 400 series steel in $2-300 knives? I think they are the only company doing this. Most 400 series knives these days are in the $15-50 price range.

I'm not saying that 400 series is bad, I am not a steel expert. But it sure seems to me that most $100 dollar and up models from other brands are using the S30v, VG10, CR154, ZDP-189, 154CM. Must be a reason-- or is it simply hype? I don't believe so.

I really like some of the Lone Star models, but I have held off purchasing, because I feel that the 400 series steel used is just not on par with the pricepoint and other quality craftmanship attributes found in their >$200 models.
 
entrek uses 440c...heck tichbourne uses 440c and his knives make lone wolf knives look dirt cheap...

having said that, the lone wolf knives that are 400 series and expensive are expensive for other reasons...

i own 4 lone wolf knives, and will own more...all are s30v...
 
440C is quite old steel and I am not sure how much any HT can do, no matter how sophisticated, to make it (440C) perform better than many other steels used today.
 
People get way too carried away with what steel the blades are made out of these days.

440C isn't junk steel by any means and if heat treated correctly it's excellent.

Most people wouldn't beable to tell the difference in 440C, VG-10, AUS8, S30V and CPM154 during use if they didn't know what the steels were before hand. ;)

But then most knives really really don't get used for more than opening mail, pocket jewelry and cleaning fingernails anyway so 440A or AUS6 would do just fine 99% of the time.
 
The problem with the '400 Series' moniker is that it's too broad a description. There are LOTS of different steels implied in this name. If it's actually 440C, or 425 (as has been used before on the Paul Knives when Gerber made them) or maybe even 420HC (think of Buck Knives), these can be excellent steels if their heat treat is properly done. I would be disappointed, however, if Lone Wolf was actually using something like 440A in a $200 knife.
 
I just checked Lone wolfs current catalog. Only one model said it was made with 400 series steel. Most of their models are S30V, several are 154CM which are both excellent steels.

440 series steels however are not ho hum steels. While they may not have the fanfare today of some of the new so called super steels. With proper heat treat they perform exceptionaly well.

Heat treat and edge geometry are far more important in determining the functionality of a blade than steel type or class.
 
wildmike said:
440 series steels however are not ho hum steels. While they may not have the fanfare today of some of the new so called super steels. With proper heat treat they perform exceptionaly well.

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Exactly. :thumbup:

It's more about my knife is (enter new super steel here) than much else and expecting people to go OOOHHHHH AHHHHH OOOOHHH AHHHHH OOOOOOOHHHH. :rolleyes:

If they don't really use the knife then it might as well be 440A or AUS6 or some really cheap junk steel.

If someone really uses the knife and it really looks like it then I am like OK, but if it looks brand new then I really don't care because it might as well be a cheap $15 gas Station knife. ;)

That is unless it's a safe queen or a collectible, then that is different, but if they are carrying it and don't use it then it's useless.

I can't even count how many times I have seen people carrying knives and refuse to really use them because they didn't want to scratch them up. They would be bragging them up all over the place about how much it costs and how great it was showing it off to everyone. ROFL

How do they really know how good it is if they never used it for anything. LOL
 
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A ton of makers, mostly custom, use 440c for their knives. It's a steel thats been around for a long time so the heat treat recipes are usually very tried and trued. I actually really love 440c. Its easy to sharpen, holds a good edge, and is very rust/corrosion resistant. Also Lone Wolf seems to have their heat treat down very well. I haven't used any of their 440c yet but have used their s30v and it holds an edge extremely well. I would imagine that they have the process down atleast as good on their 440c if not better.
 
They have down graded the Paul Presto for 2010. It was list as having a Sanvik 19c27. Now it is listed as "400 Series high-carbon stainless steel". I haven't used 19c27 but it should be close to 154cm, at least the carbon is about the same. With list price of $150 it is now off my radar.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=154CM,19C27
Thanks Gator97

The old listing. http://workingperson.com/products/8...tm_source=froogle&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=3883

The new. http://www.lonewolfknives.com/store/pages/products-poehlmann-lm21800.shtml
 
Ankerson said:
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440C isn't junk steel by any means and if heat treated correctly it's excellent.

Most people wouldn't beable to tell the difference in 440C, VG-10, AUS8, S30V and CPM154 during use if they didn't know what the steels were before hand. ;)
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It's not junk, it's old, and since then many better steels were developed. If one doesn't use his knife, then yes, there's no difference what steel is used.


To begin with, I wouldn't want to have "incorrectly" heat treated steel of any type. So, given correct HT there are bunch of steels that I'd take over 440C for different uses.

And trust me, once you start cutting cardboard, like few hundred inches or more, the difference between 440C and CPM 10V or 110V, or 125V or M4, M2 will be very apparent :)

Anyway, my point is that, in car industry for example, 80% of the steels were invented during last 10-15 years or so. Compare that to knife industry, where most of the steels were invented somewhere in early/mid 20th century...
M4 which is one of the latest and greatest, and it really is a great steel for knives, it has been around for a long time.

440C and many other old steels might be just fine, but that's no reason for not looking for better options. But if we all keep saying steel XYZ is just fine, then what motive makers have to look for the new and better steels and keep charging premium prices for 440C.


Ankerson said:
It's more about my knife is (enter new super steel here) than much else and expecting people to go OOOHHHHH AHHHHH OOOOHHH AHHHHH OOOOOOOHHHH. :rolleyes:
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That isn't necessarily true for 100% of knife users. And if you give a person the new knife form a super alloy that lasts at least twice as long than the old one, I am sure he/she will be very happy. And isn't that the reason all those scams with forever sharp kindda knives work on so many people? People, even non knife people do want better knives.

P.S. Presz you're welcome :)
 
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True dat^ Although I do like 440c I'm all for advancing the steel industry. Though I do own knives in 440c and they have preformed very well for me, I can usually be spotted with something with a bit more edge retention in my hand these days. I've tried most of the stainless and tool steels in my folders and have so far found that CPM-M4 is probably my favorite followed by CPM-D2. Some of the new steels can really do some awesome things. M4 for example is extremely tough, can be sharpened to a very acute polished edge without chipping, holds an edge for a long time, and is easy to sharpen. You don't get a combination like that very often. I would love to see Lone Wolf start experimenting with some of the newer super performance steels but they are definately great knives either way.
 
srmd22 said:
What is the deal with Lone Wolf still using 400 series steel in $2-300 knives? I think they are the only company doing this. Most 400 series knives these days are in the $15-50 price range.

I'm not saying that 400 series is bad, I am not a steel expert. But it sure seems to me that most $100 dollar and up models from other brands are using the S30v, VG10, CR154, ZDP-189, 154CM. Must be a reason-- or is it simply hype? I don't believe so.

I really like some of the Lone Star models, but I have held off purchasing, because I feel that the 400 series steel used is just not on par with the pricepoint and other quality craftmanship attributes found in their >$200 models.
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The only designs I see advertised as "400 series" is are "Paul® Executive" folder". These are gents folders with a full retail price of $119. That means the street price is 50-60 dollars. Not $100 -$300. And they are meant for use gentile indoor type users.

"400 series", by the way, typically means 420HC or 440A, NOT 440C.


Where you fellas get the idea that 440C is a poor choice for a good blade is beyond me. Any stainless with 1% carbon is going to have good edge retention. Can you measure the difference between 154CM and 440C? Yes. I can tell the difference when I test. Does the average user will notice it in daily use. No way.

1) Blade geometry is more important than alloy.
2) Chinese blades marked 440C usually aren't 440C. They are Chinese alloys with similar, but much more variable properties.
 
Properly heat treated 440C is the equal of many of the other steels most people revere. I would put it against AST34, 154CM and VG-10 any day.
 
It's more about my knife is (enter new super steel here) than much else and expecting people to go OOOHHHHH AHHHHH OOOOHHH AHHHHH OOOOOOOHHHH.

If they don't really use the knife then it might as well be 440A or AUS6 or some really cheap junk steel.

If someone really uses the knife and it really looks like it then I am like OK, but if it looks brand new then I really don't care because it might as well be a cheap $15 gas Station knife.

That is unless it's a safe queen or a collectible, then that is different, but if they are carrying it and don't use it then it's useless.
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I don't get it. You are joking, right?

Why would you feel it's your concern why a person wants a knife or steel they are buying with their money?

Why is it your concern how they use it, or what their intended use is?

You are coming across as pretty arrogant in your posts Jim.

Joe/Raleigh
 
I'm curious as to where the Executive knife is being sold for $50 - $60? Lone Wolf lists MSRP at $149.99 for both the cocobolo and carbon fiber versions. Other retailers I'm seeing have it at a street price in the $97 - $125 range.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I'm curious as to where the Executive knife is being sold for $50 - $60? Lone Wolf lists MSRP at $149.99 for both the cocobolo and carbon fiber versions. Other retailers I'm seeing have it at a street price in the $97 - $125 range.
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You are correct and I withdraw that comment.
But you are still looking at gents knives with exotic handle materials, not uber users.
 
knarfeng said:
Where you fellas get the idea that 440C is a poor choice for a good blade is beyond me. Any stainless with 1% carbon is going to have good edge retention.
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Depends what we call good, but I think that offering today 30-40 years old steel isn't the best option for the consumer. Would you want your computer or car made out of 30-40 years old materials, or forget the materials, would you still pay premium or even medium price for a car or a computer that has the same performance as 40 years ago? I think not.

knarfeng said:
1) Blade geometry is more important than alloy.
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The statement is true, and so is the "HT is very important", but both are generic statements and apply to all of the alloys, not just 440C.
The thing is, that blade geometry can be used on other steel just as well. And as hardHeart already pointed out in another thread, common sense is that in any knife you want the best HT for the given steel and designed use.

1% Carbon in the alloy might've been an achievement 50 years ago, but today it's not much. Plus there's PM, CPM, and other technologies. 440C performance was or is good, but then again, what is the criteria for good? If it's the same as 30 or 40 years ago, then yes, but we already have alloys that perform much better than 440C, with proper HT and blade geometry, and then if I say they're(new alloys) good, then 440C, 154CM and many other steels aren't all that good anymore. 154Cm and VG-10 are nothing new either.

The simple thing is, if you use a knife, you want it to a) cut better, e.e. thinner edge; b) stay sharp as long as possible, preferably on various types materials; c) withstand corrosion and aggressive environments better; d) spend less time on maintenance, which is sort of derivative of b and c, plus ease of sharpening.

So, let's take the same 440C, with ideal HT and ideal blade geometry, 30deg inclusive angle, it still cuts the same X inches of cardboard as 40 years ago, and then one has to spend some time sharpening it. There is no new HT that can increase that X by 50% or 100%. New alloys can do much better than that.

My problem with those alloys and the statement "they're still good" is that there is no improvement for decades. And that itself is no good. One might not tell the difference right away, but in a long run, if you sharpen and maintain your blade, you sure will tell the difference.
 
The other thing about many of the Lone Wolf knives (the Executive in particular), is the 'axial lock' used on the Paul variations (Paul Knife, Presto, Prankster, Defender, etc.). I know Lone Wolf has pretty much refined the process by which the locks are made/assembled (Gerber gave up on the Paul Knife because the tolerances were too difficult for high-volume production at the time), but I'm betting it's still relatively tedious to produce them, relative to other lock types. I'm sure that influences the higher price of these knives, at least in part. The '400 Series' blade might be their way of trying to otherwise contain the cost of these knives.
 
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