Lone Wolf - Ho-hum steel?

[Ankerson]

I don't get it. You are joking, right?

Why would you feel it's your concern why a person wants a knife or steel they are buying with their money?

Why is it your concern how they use it, or what their intended use is?

You are coming across as pretty arrogant in your posts Jim.

Joe/Raleigh

I think it's more I get tired of the BS than anything else.

I get tired of seeing what we call posers. LOL

Kinda like arm chair quarterbacks and lawyers talking just to talk and not really having a clue what they are talking about, but they are an expert in their own minds.

Talking about how great (Insert knife and super steel here) and never cut anything with it or use it for nothing other than opening mail and cleaning their fingernails is kinda useless IMO.

They really don't know how good it really is because they haven't really used it.

Others tend to have opinions based on nothing because they never owned such knives with said steels, but it's the greatest steel made.

Kinda like talking about how great a Ferrari is and never driven one in their lives much less owned one, but they read an article in some mag so they are an expert.

 

[CARRERA50]

I have a Camillus Heat with a Spanish blade made of 440 with a
"HEAT3.65", whatever that may be. I had the same knife with a
Taiwanese blade of AUS8A a couple of years ago; I wound up
selling it because the edge-holding properties were poor, imo.

The 440 blade sharpens easily and stays that way a long time.

 

[srmd22]

The only designs I see advertised as "400 series" is are "Paul® Executive" folder". These are gents folders with a full retail price of $119. That means the street price is 50-60 dollars. Not $100 -$300. And they are meant for use gentile indoor type users.

"400 series", by the way, typically means 420HC or 440A, NOT 440C...

Oh really? Here are just a very few of the many I have seen advertised for upwards of $200, with "400 series"-- so according to your own reckoning, less impressive then 440C. This is the "street price" by the way. Hmm?

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3747

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3711

They also have a bunch of 19C27 in the $275 price range:

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3148

It just seems to me when there are a lot of pretty nice knives using these steels, and AUS8 and the like, at the $50-100 price point, it is hard to justify purchasing a knife with "400 series" steel, whatever that is, at $275.

Yes, these knifes have some very nice craftmanship and design (beautiful abalone, stone or wood handles), and maybe would not be considered hard-users, so the blade steel is less important. But I don't really believe that. Even if you are not going to beat on the knife, you are investing in something that you think is cool, both looks and materials. I don't need titanium handles in a Seb or a Strider-- there's cheaper stuff that really would be adequate, for my uses. That is not really the point.

Now, if you are saying that "400 series" steel is just as good, functionally as S30V, well then fine. Maybe S30V is a scam on all us knife collectors, including the experienced ones. By that reasoning, I tend to doubt that even 440C is really equivalent to S30V, or VG10, or certainly the powder steels. I could certainly be wrong. As I said, I'm no expert. I don't use knives enough to have beaten on enough different steel types to know from personal experience. But collectors also want to know about the materials they are acquiring. A coin collector is not going to spend that vintage gold dollar on anything. He/she acquired it because it's cool. But it sure better be gold. If you have more then a couple of knives, you left the "that guy shouldn't care about what material the blade is, because he won't even know the difference from usage..." argument behind long ago (this also applies to Ankerson's comment, quoted below).

I really like the looks of the Lone Wolf's, and would consider >$200 even with a less modern steel, but like I said in the original post, it is what has prevented me from buying one, at that price point up to now. Their >$400 models do seem to have "higher end" steels-- I see a lot of 154CM.

But let me ask you this: if 440C is so great, why use the 154CM in the more expensive models? If their heat treatment is so awesome, well, just heat treat the "400 series."

I'm sorry but we can't have our cake and eat it too, as they say. Either the new steels ARE better, and therefore worth more $, or Lone Wolf is mixing some less impressive materials into some pretty expensive models.

I am not saying this goes for all their models. As pointed out, they do have S30V models appropriately priced in their lineup.

People get way too carried away with what steel the blades are made out of these days.

440C isn't junk steel by any means and if heat treated correctly it's excellent.

Most people wouldn't beable to tell the difference in 440C, VG-10, AUS8, S30V and CPM154 during use if they didn't know what the steels were before hand.

But then most knives really really don't get used for more than opening mail, pocket jewelry and cleaning fingernails anyway so 440A or AUS6 would do just fine 99% of the time.

See above.

 

[knarfeng]

Zviad, your simile is flawed and you missed my point.
Your simile assumes that what I want to do with the tool has changed in the last 30 years.
In computing, it has. In cutting a piece of rope, it has not.

-I acknowledged that there are other alloys that have better edge retention than 440C.
-I also said that most users in normal usage won't be able to tell the difference in performance between 440C and the uber alloys in every day use.

uber alloys are cool to play with and I like them. But 440C still gets the job done perfectly fine. Heck, for that matter AUS8 and 420HC work good as well. To say that a knife is unworthy because it does not have an uber alloy is very limiting.

 

[Ankerson]

Oh really? Here are just a very few of the many I have seen advertised for upwards of $200, with "400 series"-- so according to your own reckoning, less impressive then 440C. This is the "street price" by the way. Hmm?

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3747

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3711

They also have a bunch of 19C27 in the $275 price range:

http://www.bladehq.com/item--Lone-Wolf-Knives-Paul--3148

It just seems to me when there are a lot of pretty nice knives using these steels, and AUS8 and the like, at the $50-100 price point, it is hard to justify purchasing a knife with "400 series" steel, whatever that is, at $275.

Yes, these knifes have some very nice craftmanship and design (beautiful abalone, stone or wood handles), and maybe would not be considered hard-users, so the blade steel is less important. But I don't really believe that. Even if you are not going to beat on the knife, you are investing in something that you think is cool, both looks and materials. I don't need titanium handles in a Seb or a Strider-- there's cheaper stuff that really would be adequate, for my uses. That is not really the point.

Now, if you are saying that "400 series" steel is just as good, functionally as S30V, well then fine. Maybe S30V is a scam on all us knife collectors, including the experienced ones. By that reasoning, I tend to doubt that even 440C is really equivalent to S30V, or VG10, or certainly the powder steels. I could certainly be wrong. As I said, I'm no expert. I don't use knives enough to have beaten on enough different steel types to know from personal experience. But collectors also want to know about the materials they are acquiring. A coin collector is not going to spend that vintage gold dollar on anything. He/she acquired it because it's cool. But it sure better be gold. If you have more then a couple of knives, you left the "that guy shouldn't care about what material the blade is, because he won't even know the difference from usage..." argument behind long ago (this also applies to Ankerson's comment, quoted below).

I really like the looks of the Lone Wolf's, and would consider >$200 even with a less modern steel, but like I said in the original post, it is what has prevented me from buying one, at that price point up to now. Their >$400 models do seem to have "higher end" steels-- I see a lot of 154CM.

But let me ask you this: if 440C is so great, why use the 154CM in the more expensive models? If their heat treatment is so awesome, well, just heat treat the "400 series."

I'm sorry but we can't have our cake and eat it too, as they say. Either the new steels ARE better, and therefore worth more $, or Lone Wolf is mixing some less impressive materials into some pretty expensive models.

I am not saying this goes for all their models. As pointed out, they do have S30V models appropriately priced in their lineup.




See above.

The reason the knives cost more with the Super Steels is because the Steel costs more as does the HT and processing. Some of them are also very hard on the machinery so that also adds to the cost.

I never said the New Steels aren't good, because they are, but they don't render all other steels useless or into the junk pile either as some tend to think they do or at least act like it.

Never discount any steel that a reputable manufacturer uses because it will likely work extremely well, it doesn't matter if it's 440C, VG-10 or AUS8, if it done right the knife will do it's job.

Cost is a relative thing and a lot of things go into the cost of a said knife, the steel is only part of it.

What really blows my mind is that there are people who really think just because (Insert NEW Steel here) is out we all might as well just forget all about the other steels because they have just become useless.

That is totally ignorant and stupid to even imply that, but we tend to see those exact thoughts a lot.

That is one of the things that really irritates the crap out of me these days.

 

[srmd22]

The other thing about many of the Lone Wolf knives (the Executive in particular), is the 'axial lock' used on the Paul variations (Paul Knife, Presto, Prankster, Defender, etc.). I know Lone Wolf has pretty much refined the process by which the locks are made/assembled (Gerber gave up on the Paul Knife because the tolerances were too difficult for high-volume production at the time), but I'm betting it's still relatively tedious to produce them, relative to other lock types. I'm sure that influences the higher price of these knives, at least in part. The '400 Series' blade might be their way of trying to otherwise contain the cost of these knives.

That's a good point. If the rational is to achieve a pretty knife with limited (meaning non-hard-use) functionality at a reasonable price, I can buy that argument, actually. But I still won't buy the knife, lol. I want at least S30V at that price point ($250), call me crazy. I am talking about small folders here, not fixed blade wilderness stuff. That is a whole different ballgame.

And Knarfang's point about a limited use "genteel" type blade is not without merit, with the caveats I previously mentioned.

 

[The Mastiff]

I think it's more I get tired of the BS than anything else.

I get tired of seeing what we call posers. LOL

Kinda like arm chair quarterbacks and lawyers talking just to talk and not really having a clue what they are talking about, but they are an expert in their own minds.

Talking about how great (Insert knife and super steel here) and never cut anything with it or use it for nothing other than opening mail and cleaning their fingernails is kinda useless IMO.

They really don't know how good it really is because they haven't really used it.

Others tend to have opinions based on nothing because they never owned such knives with said steels, but it's the greatest steel made.

Kinda like talking about how great a Ferrari is and never driven one in their lives much less owned one, but they read an article in some mag so they are an expert.

I understand exactly what you are saying Jim. These guys however pay their way and fund the knife industry as much, or more in fact than us enthusiasts do.

I guess that's my point.

Regards, Joe/Raleigh

 

[Ankerson]

I understand exactly what you are saying Jim. These guys however pay their way and fund the knife industry as much, or more in fact than us enthusiasts do.

I guess that's my point.

Regards, Joe/Raleigh

Yeah I know, I go off once in awhile.

It just sometimes I want to scream you know. ROFL

 

[Edcgearreviews]

One justification I heard was that you dont need high end steel for gents knives, and they take a better mirror polish.

 

[The Mastiff]

Yeah I know, I go off once in awhile.

It just sometimes I want to scream you know

I blame my grouchyness on age. Add another 50 years to my age of 48 and then I'll reach Esav levels. I'm not as polished or literate as Esav though, so I'll just have to unplug from the.....whatever replaces computers then and stay home and yell at the TV, and the kids on the lawn on their hover skateboards!! Damn kids!!

 

[Ankerson]

I blame my grouchyness on age. Add another 50 years to my age of 48 and then I'll reach Esav levels. I'm not as polished or literate as Esav though, so I'll just have to unplug from the.....whatever replaces computers then and stay home and yell at the TV, and the kids on the lawn on their hover skateboards!! Damn kids!!

Yeah really, I'm 45 and grouchy.

 

[Billbo66]

I have a Paul Executive in CF, as well as a few of their other knives in S30V. I agree with previous posters comments regarding use. I generally EDC something in S30V. I put the Executive in my pocket for nights out on the town, when I am wearing a nicer slack or a suit, or when the pocket clip would be an issue. Like others, I really feel naked when I don't have a knife, and the Executive fits the niche. It is very well made, came razor sharp, and is a blast to open. I think most of the cost is in the lock mechanism, and a modern super steel would be unnecessary and even more expensive. It is a favorite "gentleman's" knife, even though I only carry it a few times a year. If I lost it, I would probably buy another soon.

On another note- I also have a "Presto". I did have an issue with the lock mechanism on that knife, and the people at Lone Wolf were very easy to deal with regarding the warranty. They fixed it and had it back to me very quickly. The only down side to the "Axiel" locking system is that it is finicky about debris getting in it, and is not user maintainable. A filthy pocket will screw it up quickly.

 

[Ankerson]

I have a Paul Executive in CF, as well as a few of their other knives in S30V. I agree with previous posters comments regarding use. I generally EDC something in S30V. I put the Executive in my pocket for nights out on the town, when I am wearing a nicer slack or a suit, or when the pocket clip would be an issue. Like others, I really feel naked when I don't have a knife, and the Executive fits the niche. It is very well made, came razor sharp, and is a blast to open. I think most of the cost is in the lock mechanism, and a modern super steel would be unnecessary and even more expensive. It is a favorite "gentleman's" knife, even though I only carry it a few times a year. If I lost it, I would probably buy another soon.

On another note- I also have a "Presto". I did have an issue with the lock mechanism on that knife, and the people at Lone Wolf were very easy to deal with regarding the warranty. They fixed it and had it back to me very quickly. The only down side to the "Axiel" locking system is that it is finicky about debris getting in it, and is not user maintainable. A filthy pocket will screw it up quickly.

My current EDC's are S30V and VG-1.

 

[Gator97]

Your simile assumes that what I want to do with the tool has changed in the last 30 years.
In computing, it has. In cutting a piece of rope, it has not.

Cutting a piece of rope is job description. To cut a piece of rope, one or twice, even a bronze knife will to, flint knife will do that too. What has not changed is human nature, we want more and better, preferably cheaper too, from the same tools, as the time passes.
I didn't say the job description has changed for knives, but the requirement is to do it better and longer. Again, yes the rope, even if it's made form the same 30-40 years old materials, or beef, or whatever else you cut is the same, but I want my new knives to cut few times longer w/o the need sharpening, while having thinner edge. That's the progress. If the maker uses the same 40 year old steel, where is the improvement?
Don't you think a butcher who has to sharpen or steel his knife few times a day wouldn't notice and appreciate a new knife that can stay sharp few days?

ENIAC was the very first computer and it was good enough to do calculations to build the first atomic bomb. Using "good enough" logic there was not much need to build more sophisticated equipment, but the same need to do things faster and at less cost, made the rest happen and brought the new requirements for the computers.

-I also said that most users in normal usage won't be able to tell the difference in performance between 440C and the uber alloys in every day use.

Depends on the improvement. You don't think average user would notice 2x improvement in edge holding for his/her daily use knife?

Heck, for that matter AUS8 and 420HC work good as well. To say that a knife is unworthy because it does not have an uber alloy is very limiting.

Unworthy of the premium price, I specifically pointed that out. Again, if 40 years ago, 40C knife could cut X inches of cardboard before going dull, and it was in top 10 results, then it was a super steel. Now, 40 years later there are other steels that can do few times better, so 440C results are no longer in top 10, perhaps not even top 50... X didn't change, and based on that you say it's still a very good steel. From that perspective you are right, but from my perspective, there's other steels outperforming 440C by large margin.
To be precise, there should be 50 other steels, but knife industry is quite conservative, and overall improvement in steel properties used in knives isn't all that impressive. The fact that quite a few old steels are just entering knife market and are hailed as "new" supersteels is telling enough.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I have a Paul Executive in CF, as well as a few of their other knives in S30V. I agree with previous posters comments regarding use. I generally EDC something in S30V. I put the Executive in my pocket for nights out on the town, when I am wearing a nicer slack or a suit, or when the pocket clip would be an issue. Like others, I really feel naked when I don't have a knife, and the Executive fits the niche. It is very well made, came razor sharp, and is a blast to open. I think most of the cost is in the lock mechanism, and a modern super steel would be unnecessary and even more expensive. It is a favorite "gentleman's" knife, even though I only carry it a few times a year. If I lost it, I would probably buy another soon.

On another note- I also have a "Presto". I did have an issue with the lock mechanism on that knife, and the people at Lone Wolf were very easy to deal with regarding the warranty. They fixed it and had it back to me very quickly. The only down side to the "Axiel" locking system is that it is finicky about debris getting in it, and is not user maintainable. A filthy pocket will screw it up quickly.

+ 1 :thumbup: to Lone Wolf on their customer service.

I recently sharpened a First Production Prankster for a friend of mine. He'd carried & used the knife quite a bit, and one of the scale screws had come out and been lost (along with the recessed 'washer' underneath it). I contacted Lone Wolf and asked if they'd be willing to send some replacement screws & washers. No problems at all, received 'em in the mail very quickly. No questions asked, didn't even have to pay for postage.

Regarding the axial lock, it just so happened that this knife also had an issue with it's lock. The lock had actually come unscrewed, and the whole works came apart in my hand when I was cleaning it. Sort of forced the issue for me, so I spent a couple of weeks figuring out what type of threadlocker or glue would work to hold it all in place. And that was AFTER I'd assembled/disassembled it several times to find the 'sweet spot' between too loose and too tight. Surprisingly, I never was able to get any type of threadlocker (Loctite blue, red and green; all failed) to hold it together. VERY limited surface area for any adhesive to hold on (about 2 -3 turns of very tight pitch threads). The thing that actually worked was the Loctite version of CA glue (i.e. superglue). The tricky thing was applying the glue (only one drop) so that it touched ONLY the threads and nothing else.

So, for the most part, I'd agree that the lock isn't user-maintainable. Or, at the very least, I now understand why Lone Wolf might prefer to fix it themselves.