Long term bugout.., yet again

Okay, once again I quest for the ultimate Long Term Bugout Pack
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..., taking it apart, and putting it back together (hopefully, lighter and more efficient).

The goal is a backpack 80lbs or less, capable of sustaining me for several years, in the mountains and foothills of the southern Appalachians.

Identifying essentials first (adding desireables later, and assuming I'm already dressed for the weather), I figure I need water, shelter and food..., so the essentials would include:
Katadyn Pocket Water Filter
10'x10' nylon tarp
Mosquito netting
Simonich SRT w/Parasite
Gerber semi-custom Fish and Game knife
Wenger Skinner SAK
Spyderco double-sided ceramic stone
300' 550 paracord
Firestarters (metal match, Blast Match, Strike Force..., some redundancy)
Ruger 10/22T .22 rifle w/ Leupold scope
2000 rds. .22 ammo
1 qt. pot
Salt
Cup
Water carrier
Snares
Snare wire
Edible plant book
Gun cleaning supplies
Fishing line, hooks, sinkers
And if I'm not already wearing these.., boots, coat, gloves, hat, etc.

What else might you consider ESSENTIAL for long term survival? Admittedly, as "desireable", there are some "near essentials".., like sleeping bag and pad, saw, maps, compass, gill net, etc.

I guess even some of my "essentials" *could* be dropped. I could make cord from our tulip poplars, for snares and other cord uses. I could drop the .22, and rely on traps and snares. I could carve a cup, and build a warm, dry debris shelter without a tarp.

But you have to draw the line somewhere
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I didn't see a shovel or sharpening equipment on the list. Also, a sewing kit is very useful if you're out for a while, so you can patch up your clothes. - CAman
 
M

MichLee

Joined
Dec 6, 1999
Messages
266
For several years? I won't ask from what you are "bugging out".

You might want to include additional clothing (seasonal). Additional footware.
Heavy needles and nylon "artificial sinew" because you are going to have to
make clothing/repairs to clothing and boots Constant wear will wear clothing
out faster than you think. You might want 4 or 5 fire starters.
How about refills for your water filter, water purification tabs, your filter might break. How much salt is several years worth? You might want to forget that. 80 lbs is not a lot for several years worth of gear.

Now if you are planning on going "indian", making mocasins etc. you will need
leather punches/needles etc. Plus practice before actually trying it. This
includes braintanning and actually making moccasins, clothing etc.




------------------
Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Over the years, I have replaced most of the items in my bugout kit with either lower maintenance or a lighter version. For example, my Ruger 10/22 just got upgraded with a threaded in carbon fiber barrel, one piece ring mounts, and a Ramline folding stock. This cuts almost two pounds off the rifle. Ammo is ultra high velocity 30-32 grain varieties instead of the 36-40 grain HV stuffs. It makes a difference when you are carrying 1,000+ rounds.

My knives are a Rob Simonich Talonite Cetan and a Mission Knives MPK, both are lighter than comparable steel knives and are almost zero maintenance. I also carry a Wave multitool specifically for the diamond file for field sharpening.

I would also consider a first aid kit, a compass, a small bottle of concentrated anti-biotic dishwashing liquid, a bottle of tylenol, a large bottle of vitamins, a couple of bandanas, a couple of wire saws, and a Glock shovel with root cutter.
 
CAman
I included the Spyderco double-sided ceramic stone in the essentials list. That's a sharpening stone that should be pretty durable, and hard enough to handle modern steels.

And I agree on the shovel (I recently bought Glock's shovel, and I have several others of various sizes), and the sewing kit..., but, like I said, I was listing ESSENTIALS, for the core of the kit.., things you just "can't live without".

Once the core of the kit is established and packed, I'll prioritize other items, and add those until I reach size and weight limits.

In that prioritization, I've already identified:
Near Essentials:

Sleeping bag
Ground pad
Ground cloth
Insect repellant
Needles and thread
Matches
Scissors
DMT sharpening stone
Eating utensils
Axe
Gill Net

Highly Desireable:

Fowler Indian Belt knife
Butane lighters
Magnifying glass
LED flashlight
Solar charger
12 AA Nicad batteries
Maps
Compass
First Aid Kit
Collapsible saw
Poncho
Soap
Buttons
Repair kit
Bandannas
extra pot
small mirror
safety pins
candles
Trioxane
Straight razor
collapsible fishing pole

And more!
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Right now, I'm trying to see if I'm leaving out any "essentials"... or what others might see as their "essentials"

MichLee

I agree with most all of what you said. 80 lbs isn't much for several years.. that's why I'm making my bugout, ultimately, modular.

80 lbs is exclusively for my back. I have a large game carrier that's rated for 550lbs.., so I figure I could manage about 300 in supplies, if necessary. That would allow me to add another backpack of "less essential" items, extra food, and maybe a thousand rds. of .308.

Alternatively, if I have my car available, I should be able to handle, perhaps, a thousand lbs. of supplies, or more... so I'll have big plastic storage carriers of food and clothing and boots and lots of other stuff, ready to toss into the back of the Explorer.

The Katadyn Pocket filter is rated for 13,000 gal. I shouldn't need a replacement.. though I have a couple Mini-filters, and a Combi Filter, that'll undoubtedly be included in some of those modular supplies as spares, and to be included in emergency caches.

Salt.., I have a couple of 60lb buckets that'd go into the Explorer. Clothing.. again, I have modular clothing packs, and spare boots.., but, again, I'm working my way from a survival core, outward.

As for "why" or "what" I'm planning for..., nothing SPECIFIC. I've been planning for such things for over 30 years, be it nuclear war, economic collapse, martial law, Y2K..., I figure I gotta be right one of these days
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!!!
 
NamViet Vo,

Interesting idea, about the ultra velocity .22 ammo..., I'd never have thought it'd make much difference in weight. My ammo is a mix of Match standard velocity, high velocity 37gr HPs, and some CCI CB ammo for "quiet" hunting. I guess I could substitute some short HPs, to save a bit of weight.

Admittedly, the 10/22T is heavy, with it's bull barrel..., but there are some things I'm willing "splurge" a little on, in weight.., guns and knives being two of those.

I dunno about the wire saws. I've got a Pocket Chainsaw.., but I also have a Sawvivor, a 12" Wyoming Saw, an 18" Wyoming saw, plus another one or two. I'm leaning toward the 18" Wyoming, with several extra bone cutting and wood cutting blades.

I got a Glock shovel last week... was also thinking about picking up a Cold Steel Special Forces shovel.. see which I like best. But I didn't see a Glock with a "root cutter" option. Is that just the sharpened blade, or something optional?
 
Another thing to consider is, if you know the general area you are going to, go there in advance and cache a lot of these items. This allows other and more expensive items that you may not want to bury, to be taken with you when you leave. An example you cache 2000 rounds of 22 ammo, carry 50 rounds with your rifle when you leave. This can be done with a lot of other items. I think you get the idea.
 
THus far you have been given a LOT of useful info, many items of which I considered posting. So I'll try to add new stuff.

Your list looks pretty comprehensive for any bug out kit. I don't know if "I" would want to try living out of it for several years.

Looking at the long range potential, I would suggest GARDENING SEEDS! You would want more variety and a more abundant supply of food than what you could just gather. You would want to look for "non hybrid" seeds so that the seeds of future plants could be saved for another years planting. But enough seeds for several years could be bought and not use much space or weight.

A substantial FIRST AID kit along with a good manual could be invaluable. If you have the training that much better. But I understand that two good books are "Where there is no doctor" and "Where there is no dentist".

The CACHE idea sounds good, but another idea is to build yourself an actual retreat. Having a place to go and supplies waiting for you will take some of the pressure off of you. Using the BOB, caches and retreat layers your resources and you can have WAY more than 80 lbs of gear/supplies.

Going primitive may lead you to primitive weapons as well. You may want to look at bows, arrows, blowguns, throwing sticks, slingshots, slings, etc. Not only knowing how to use them, but having a few added supplies for building them may be invaluable. A few broadheads or blowgun darts or extra surgical tubing, may keep you fed for that much longer.

Hope you get some ideas.

Good luck!



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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
I would lose the scope on the rifle and replace it with a peep site. Peep sites will be far more reliable and very serviceable.

And I would choose a bolt action over the Ruger 10/22. Ruger makes a nice bolt action. Bolts are more reliable and inherently more accurate. I own a Ruger 10/22 with a bull barrel. It has a trigger job and glass bedded barrel and it's a tack driver. But it's not as accurate as my CZ bolt action 22. And my CZ is much lighter sans the bull barrel.

But really, if I was going to lug around a 22 for survival, I would probably take a pistol. It will keep you fed if you know how to shoot it and will be much lighter to carry than a rifle. If I was going to take a long gun, probably a single shot 410 or 20 guage would be the ticket. With slugs you can take deer and shot shells will easily keep you fed on small game.


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Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
B Miller
I agree... caching would be a huge advantage. It would probably even allow me to carry my Steyr Scout.

I've thought about caching before.. came close to it before Y2K..., but I'm always concerned about someone finding it, or the supplies deteriorating. .22 ammo is pretty compact, and fairly cheap.., so that'd make a good cache choice. .308 Winchester Silvertips are a bit more expensive, but manageable. Clothing and knives and food, I'd be concerned about. Well.., I guess freeze-dried food, or MRE's, would cache fairly well.

I may follow your suggestion. I actually have 3 or 4 locations as retreat options, but a couple of ammo caches would substantially improve my chances.

Plainsman,
I *have* been given some good suggestions, and I'll try to incorporate some of them. The cache idea.., even if only for .22 ammo, would be a substantial improvement.

A full-fledged retreat would be great..., except a lot of them get broken in to (unless they're in a well populated area), so I'd been *very* reticent about storing much there.

The first aid kit.., that's an important part of my "near essential" supplies. Actually, I have a couple drugs that are basically "essential", though I can survive without them (at some cost to my overall health). I've got "Where There is No Doctor", plus a special forces med book, and some others..., plus surgical supplies and all that..., but, in terms of a bugout kit that I can carry on my back, I have to keep things pretty basic, I think.

I figure a .22, with 2000 rds. would last for several years. If I could turn a couple rds. into a deer, they might last a couple decades. I'm hoping to utilize snares and traps to provide most of my small game, so I'm hoping not to rely too much on primitive weapons.

Hoodoo
I've got Ruger's 77/22.. which is a great rifle, and somewhat lighter than the 10/22T. The main reason I went with the 10/22 is it has at least some minimal defensive capability. Several quickly placed .22 bullets have a chance of stopping an aggressor.

I realize fixed sights are more reliable.., but I've used a scope since I was 10, and my eyes are no longer nearly as good as they were. I include a spare scope in my "desireable" supplies category.

A .22 pistol.., I don't consider myself reliably able to take a squirrel at 70 yds, with a pistol. I have a Ruger .22 pistol, a S&W Airlite (which I may throw in the "essentials pack", since it's so light and compact), and a S&W Kit gun.., but I don't consider them primary weapons, in my case.

A shotgun.., I just purchased a Savage 24F, in .30-30 over 12 ga. Nice, but heavy.., and shotgun shells, even 20 ga. are just too heavy and big to carry in quantity. I can take a squirrel as easily with a .22 as a 20 ga..., at considerable weight and space savings. Deer..., sure, a slug works better than a HV .22.., but I just can't afford the weight.
 
KIRK: I understand where you are coming from entirely! I tried my first cache at about the age of 15...Water got in and damaged the book, and caused several items to rust.

You may want to look up some sites on CACHING on the web. There are some excellent ones with GREAT info.

As to the retreat, do you have a place picked out for a destination? If so, is it public or private land? Perhaps a few "building" supplies could be stashed and then used to build a substantial shelter for yourself. Also, caches could be placed along the route to your retreat in 'safe' areas.

Good luck!



------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Plainsman,
I've got some mylar bags, oxygen absorbers, a heat sealer for the bags, and some screw top 5 gal buckets. I figure I cache 2 or 3 buckets, with .22 ammo, some MRE entrees, a little freezedried food, in either the aluminized individual servings, or small or large cans..., but, yeah, I'd still be leery of putting clothing, guns, good knives, etc.. in those buckets.

I guess, though, there's a goodly amount of stuff that could be cached that way.., the stuff above, batteries, repair items, firestarters, salt, ziplock bags, inexpensive pots and pans, etc. I need to look at that some more.

As for retreat options..., they're on public land. Maybe, eventually, I'll buy some remote land... that would simplify things. But, right now, I'm looking at a couple good sized lakes (*if* I can retreat by car, and take my canoe), or a couple game management areas in relatively remote country.

Jeff,
I've got a large signal mirror, and a couple smaller ones. Obviously, in the above scenario, I'm not looking to be rescued, but, it'd be nice to be able to look at myself, occasionally
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, as well as see injuries to my face, eyes, etc.
 
Um...exactly why would a person go through all this trouble? I think a more usefull and realistic very long term "survival" plan should involve a retirement plan and good health insurance.

------------------
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
 
Granite,

>>Um...exactly why would a person go through all this trouble? I think a more usefull and realistic very long term "survival" plan should involve a retirement plan and good health insurance.<<

<laughing> Why? Hmmmmm, you want me to try to psychoanalyze myself? Why would someone spend $16,000 on knives? I dunno..., I've been assembling survival kits since I was 11. And it was usually long term survival. Maybe I was at an impressionable age during the Cuban Missle crisis
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Or maybe it's just an urge to always be able to control my environment.

For me.. it's not exactly "trouble". It's almost an avocation.. a quest.. a puzzle. And who needs investments and health care, when they can check their traps and snares each day, and have plenty to eat??!?!?
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I would agree about ditching the scope on the rifle, and I'd probably go for the pistol as well, at least in the lightweight pack, I'd want a rifle somewhere, but not where weight was a significant factor. If I can't get close enough to a squirrel to hit it with a pistol, then I've got more of a problem than what to pack.

As for the additional list, if you take a razor, take a strop as well, and probably a good waterstone for it, and a mirror. I'd add shaving soap too, even if it was just one cake. Without those additions, there's little or no difference between yer knife and the razor.

I'd add more para cord. There's no sense in making something that I can bring with that little weight and that better performance. I would definately add a pair of boots, unless you are used to walking in moccasins. It quite literally requires you to learn how to walk all over again, and your feet will need to toughen up for them.

Good things to cache, if you make it dry and animal proof, blue tarps, flour, rice, sugar, salt, canned goods, snare wire, spring traps, fish net, wool blankets, cooking gear, an axe... A nice dutch oven or skillet will make your stay so much more enjoyable.

Other than that, enjoy. I would be more likely to cache basic foods (flour, sugar, salt) than freeze dried meals or MRE type foods. They're cheaper if the cache is raided, and I can make more stuff with them anyways...


Stryver

 
Stryver,

I understand the preference for "ditching the scope"..., but it's what I've used all my life. Of course.., this thread isn't just about me. I AM surprised, though, about you folks (even if it's just a couple of "you folks
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) choosing a pistol over a rifle.

I can understand choosing a pistol for a *small*, limited time survival pack.., I've done that myself. But for long term, I'd consider the additional weight a welcome burden, given the substantial increase in available range and power. It's not a factor of being able to stalk an "average squirrel".., but, sometimes, a long shot may be all you have, between you eating meat, or going without.

I sort'a agree on the razor. I already have a beard.., and I'd probably just keep it, and rely on scissors for just trimming it.

Paracord.., yeah, I'd like to take more. 500 ft.., a thousand.., eventually, I'm gonna run out, and you have to draw the line somewhere. Eventually, you *will* be using natural materials.

Boots.., I qualified the beginning of the thread to say you have appropriate, seasonal clothing on. That would mean boots, pants of some sort.., and, depending on season, t-shirt, or wool sweater and wind/water shell with gloves and hat and scarf. If it's summer.., the extra (winter) additions would have to be part of your pack, or in a cache.

One pair of boots should last a while. I have Danner, Bates, and others.., but, eventually, they *will* wear out. Eventually, you will be in those moccasins. I've tried adding extra footwear to my pack.., boots, walking shoes.., even heavy duty sandals. They're all pretty heavy and bulky.

I agree on the efficiency of caching.., and agree with most of your suggestions (though some, like the blankets, are pretty bulky, and would be difficult to seal into mylar bags). The dutch oven and skillet are definitely a good addition. I've got lots of extras in both categories, and could afford to cache some.

I dunno about the flour, though. From what I understand, once the wheat has been turned to flour, it quickly loses it nutritional value, and becomes more vulnerable to bugs and stuff. It might be better to store whole wheat, and perhaps a cheap grinder.., or just rely on a couple rocks or mortar and pestal to crack, or pulverize, the wheat onsite.

Anyway..., you folks certainly have me thinking
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You got me thinking about SANDALS! You may want to find the space for a pair of those or running shoes for the following reasons:

Camp wear. This will give your boots time to breathe, dry, be polished, etc.

Wet wear. If you are around water doing small mundane chores you could wear these and prevent your boots from getting wet in the first place. Also if you have to cross wet or muddy ground.

This would extend the life of your boots and allows your feet time to breathe as well saving undue stress on them.


As to the handgun issue. If you have a SOLID REST and pick your shots, a handgun can be just as useful if not moreso, than a rifle. I would feel VERY secure if the only firearm I had was my Redhawk or Contender. I could procure large game, small game or protect myself and it is ALWAYS on me, so it would be there when needed.

Of course, I'm not saying a RIFLE is useless. Primarily, I would like to have BOTH, but I could make do with either. It is mostly a matter of how much CONFIDENCE you have in the weapon from PRACTICE!
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Good luck!


------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Boy, talk about "thinking"..., I just got the new Cabela's Master catalog in the mail yesterday. I've already marked about $700 worth of stuff I want!
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Sleeping bags have always been a particular interest for me. A good night's rest is pretty important, and I like to *stretch out*! These little 32" wide (or smaller) bags just don't cut it! I've got a 38" bag.., but I'm looking at the two person bags, now. Rated for about 5 degrees.., but I figure they give LOTS of room to stretch out.. and if it decides to get really cold, you could use 3 or 4 safety pins to double it over, putting 3 layers on top of you, still having about 37" of width.. and it should give you a temp rating about minus 30.

Anyway.. yeah, I've got some Teva sandals. I figured they's make nice "camp" and summer footwear. I also have some good, Rockport walking shoes that would work well.., and a pair of Merrell winter camp shoes that're soft and warm. But... again, I think all of these would go into the "desireable" packs, rather than essential.

You guys are better shots than me with a pistol, obviously. I can keep it in a couple inches at 30 yds.., but a rifle manages an inch or less, at 50.. for me, at least. And that difference is important, on targets the size of a squirrel.

I have a Contender, with buttstock, a .22 pistol barrel, a 44mag pistol barrel w/ choke (I have 60 or 80 rds of the old, Thompson-Center birdshot rds. for the .44mag (though I understand they have collector value that may supersede using them in the field.) Though illegal now..., I could probably use the .22 pistol barrel with a scope, and the buttstock, and manage some pretty good accuracy. I also have a Contender .22 rifle barrel, though.., which would probably only add an extra pound or so.

I dunno..., for me, I'm pretty happy with the 10/22T choice, in my kit. That rifle, with 4 extra magazines (two for HV, one for target, and one for CB), provides a nice package, for me.

For now.., I'm gonna go look at that Cabela catalog again! They have a new, "deluxe" dutch oven that's kind'a cute!
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Kirk:
Unless you plan on living the rest of your life off what you place into these bags/caches, I disagree that eventually you *will* have to use natural materials. And if that is what you intend on, then do not worry about string and boots, but findout where to mine sulpher and saltpeter, and where the lead deposits are, or learn how to make and shoot a bow (And how to stalk small game to well under 30 yards, and large game to near that).

If we are talking a few years, after which you intend on coming back, or finding a town somewhere, or whatnot, unless you like the idea of living as a 'native', take extra boots, take extra string, take extra clothing. Pack more socks. Plenty of socks. I'd be willing to (and have) go a week or so on one change of underwear, but I would not want to on one change of socks, and would not expect my feet to be healthy in the long run if I did.

Actually, I would suggest adding a few pairs of socks to your lightweight bag. I'd go with light wool hiking socks personally, but your tastes may be different. Especially since this is something I intend on grabbing as I run out the door, and not returning soon, as opposed to an emergency kit designed to help me live comfortably for the week or two it takes me to get found and rescued. Depending on weather in your area (I don't know what winters are like in the Appalachians) I would add basic winter necessities to your bag, in case it's august when you leave, and you have to be out for the winter. Things like gloves/mittens, a warm hat, winter boots. These are small thigns that are, IMO, easier to pack with me than to try to fabricate. At the minimum, I'd have these (Maybe a coupla wools caps and gloves/mittens) in a cache somewhere.

In the Alaska Gold Rush days, after the first winter, there was a pass in Canada, which I do not remember right now, manned by Mounties. The first year of the gold rush was rather helter skelter, and some ungodly number of people died in the first winter. After that, it was requried that you have 2000 lbs of gear to go through this pass, and there were mounties there 24/7 making sure you had it. It would take people a whole day or two just to hike their stuff up to the checkpoint from whatever town/stop was below it. Then you'd pile it all on a sledge, and go down the other side. These were people, some greener than others, without as much technodependence as we have now, who were planning on doing exactly what you talk about. I realize that Alaska is a far different environment, and that you probably have much more skill in survival, but even with this 2000 pound load, and businesses and towns in Alaska, not everyone made it. Be aware of the magnitude of what you are attempting. Do not limit what you take unreasonably. Don't take it all, but don't think that means you can't take some niceties... And not all niceties are all that easy to get around without... Oh, and take Toilet paper. Stock that in a cache of yours. A lot. If you don't believe me, don't take any on your next camping trip.
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Cache things that are cheap, bulky, and/or heavy. And duplicate your caches. Assume some will be damaged and gotten into. Be Okay with this, and cache more.

Stryver, who thinks he'd get an article 15 if he bugged out...
 
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