Looking at Kali and Have a Few Question

Peter_E_Ryt

Peter_E_Ryt

Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
1,179
Howdy yall!
I've been looking at getting back in to martial arts for a while (I used to practice Hung Gar Kung Fu), but wanted to try something different, and at least slightly more practical. After some research, it looks like Kali (or Arnis or Eskrima- they seem to be interchangeable) is the way for me to go. It involves little to no frills, covers atleast a bit of everything (grappling, open hand, weapon, etc.), and involves practical training involving my obsession, balisongs.

Here are my questions:
-Do I have the basic idea behind Kali right?
-Are Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis interchangeable?
-What are classes generally like? I've read that there aren't any forms or kata, and that you're in regular clothing, but is there anything else that differes from standard Eastern martial arts?
-Are there classes, or is it on a private instrucation basis only? I've searched for Austin based classes, but have only found the names of instructors. Are there any Austinites that know of any classes in the area?
-Is this the type of martial art where gym time and conditioning outside of instruction are needed to reap the full benefit, or is that normally covered during training?
-Any wisdom that yall would care to pass on?

Thanks!

~Peyton
 
You may get some different answers however I would say...

-Do I have the basic idea behind Kali right?
yes

-Are Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis interchangeable?
at least at the basic level though they differ in the number of angles zones etc..

-What are classes generally like? I've read that there aren't any forms or kata, and that you're in regular clothing, but is there anything else that differes from standard Eastern martial arts?
Drills and a type of form called sinawali

-Are there classes, or is it on a private instrucation basis only? I've searched for Austin based classes, but have only found the names of instructors. Are there any Austinites that know of any classes in the area?
Kali and Arnis has grown a lot over the last 20 years or so and now its a common as Kung-Fu

-Is this the type of martial art where gym time and conditioning outside of instruction are needed to reap the full benefit, or is that normally covered during training?
Yes and no, no more and no less than any other martial art

-Any wisdom that yall would care to pass on?
1.Join a martial arts forum list dragons list where you can talk to people who do it
2.Go to a seminar or two get a feel for it live
3. Know what it is you exspect and are willing to work for.
 
Thanks for the quick response Azis!

One quick question about your post though: Dragon's List looks to be a Kung Fu community- am I at the wrong site?
 
Peter, I'd say go for it. It's a blast! Decent cardio workout when you really get into it. -Matt-
 
I've studied Arnis & Pikiti Tirsia Kali, they're similar, but different,
so yes they can blend together
Arnis is more defensive
Kali is more aggressive
Escrima is based a lot from the Spanish swords
My Kali teacher once told us "you all are as strong as you need to be, to do Kali", & I'm over weight & not in great shape yet, but improving w/ training
good cardio will help alot of course
There seems to be a lot of FMA schools in Texas, check out a few
The FMA will work good w/ your prevous training, it opened my eyes to new applications for the techniques I already knew

Tom
 
The DL is a KF site but open to all arts and has artist and teachers from many systems there. Lot of kali people there as well
 
-Are Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis interchangeable?

Ok, first of all, Kali, Eskrima and Arnis are all pretty much the same thing. The Philippines is made up of thousands of Islands each with wither its own language or dialect. The three main regions are Luzon in the North, Visayas in the central region and Mindanao in the South.

Arnis is used in the Northern region to describe in a generic way the Filipino Martial Arts. In the central Visayan regions it is referred to as Eskrima (that’s EsKrima with a K not a C as in the American spelling of the word, which is in-fact incorrect). In the Southern region of Mindanao they refer to the art as Kali (though this is not the name used in all styles). There is still a great deal of debate as to the exact origin and meaning of the word Kali).

These three words, Eskrima, Arnis and Kali are generic words describing much the same art, though different systems and styles will focus on different aspects of the FMA broad base curriculum.

In general, the word Kali is often used to describe FMA that concentrate fairly heavily on the bladed aspect (knives, swords etc).

-What are classes generally like? I've read that there aren't any forms or kata, and that you're in regular clothing, but is there anything else that differs from standard Eastern martial arts?

The class structure will depend on the instructor and style you take up. Some systems/styles do have a kata basis (known as Porma, Sayaw, Kata, Bunga, Karenza etc.) Some styles use this format as a training process, others do not favoring two person applications over individual solo exercise.

The practice of wearing regular clothing generally comes from the influence JKD has had on Kali/Eskrima practice. However, again some styles have adopted uniforms based either on the Japanes Gi type of the traditional Filipino dress. In the Philippines (where I live and train) we mostly wear T-shirt and loose fitting trousers, mostly because of the heat not because of any uniform choice as such.

The main difference between FMA practice and other asian systems is that you will be introduced to weapons straight away. Double stick, single stick (of varying length) stick & dagger, single and double daggers, long staff and a wide variety of bladed weapons form the overall weapons format. Empty handed applications are also taught along side the weapons as the movements and principles are interchangeable.

-Are there classes, or is it on a private instruction basis only? I've searched for Austin based classes, but have only found the names of instructors. Are there any Austinites that know of any classes in the area?

You should be able to find instructors who teach both on an individual basis and group classes. Can’t help with the Austin based classes as I don’t know of any.

-Is this the type of martial art where gym time and conditioning outside of instruction are needed to reap the full benefit, or is that normally covered during training?

Any martial arts practice will benefit from additional training out side of normal class time, the more you practice the better you will get, as long as you practice in the right way.
 
Thanks for the info stickmaster, its very informative, althought I wouldn't say being introduced to weapons straight away was an FMA thing, what about the old Chinese and Japanese systems?
 
CMA and JMA would normally not do that other than kendo or a specific weapon art. Though American schools might as there isn't a lot of tradition left in most US schools
 
Peter_E_Ryt said:
Here are my questions:
-Do I have the basic idea behind Kali right?
-Are Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis interchangeable?
Click to expand...

Kinda. You can think of the terms kali, eskrima, and arnis as all describing a broad umbrella of systems. Just like the term kung fu describes zillions of often-very-different Chinese fighting styles. Likewise, different styles of kali/eskrima/arnis can be very different in the techniques used, how they're taught, etc. Generally, though, all these styles include early and strong emphasis on edged weapons and sticks in addition to empty hand.

-What are classes generally like? I've read that there aren't any forms or kata, and that you're in regular clothing, but is there anything else that differes from standard Eastern martial arts?
Click to expand...

Completely depends on the style, and obviously the instructor. Many styles of eskrima (I'll use that generically) use teaching techniques variously called things like flow drills, sinawali, vital templates, etc., that are essentially a form of two-man kata, with all the implications of non-alive training and wasted time that that implies. Note that that is merely my opinion, not one shared by most other practicioners. Yes, most styles train in regular clothing. A big distinction from other eastern martial arts is that in eskrima, you will typically start with weapons from day one, often not doing a lot of empty hands until you've built a base on weapons work (exactly the opposite of most other eastern martial arts). Most all your time will be spent working with a partner rather than practicing in the air.

-Are there classes, or is it on a private instrucation basis only? I've searched for Austin based classes, but have only found the names of instructors.
Click to expand...

Depends on the style. I've noticed that with eskrima, there are more instructors who choose to teach one-on-one than in most other styles. But it's usually not hard to find classes also.

-Is this the type of martial art where gym time and conditioning outside of instruction are needed to reap the full benefit, or is that normally covered during training?
Click to expand...

Again, styles make the difference. But generally speaking, coming from a background of boxing, muay Thai, wrestling, BJJ ... eskrima practicioners are by far the most out-of-shape folks I've ever worked with. Go to a local eskrima competition and a BJJ competition, the difference in bodies is amazing, it's almost like two different species! I strike this up to the fact that you don't have to be in killer shape to do an unspeakable amount of damage blindingly fast with a weapon. Obviously, though, as I said styles and instructors make all the difference -- an incredibly combative style like Dog Brothers, because of the extreme demands placed on the practicioner, is going to build conditioning as well as anything else. Bottom line is, you'll get all the conditioning you need in-class to do fine, but if you're thinking you'll get into shape like a boxer or wrestler, you'll need to do supplemental work outside class.
 
When you compare FMA to other Eastern styles, you seem to have forgotten about Shaolin systems, or the old Bujutsu systems of Japan, where weapons were foremost and the empty handed techniques were taught alongside, I don't see anything unique in the principles of FMA training, indeed in the Katori Shinto Ryu two man drills are predominent just like in a lot FMA. Albeit different weapons and different cultures, but similar in principle regarding weapon orientation and two man drills, with a lack of kata, except when doing Iai Jutsu.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
eskrima practicioners are by far the most out-of-shape folks I've ever worked with.
Click to expand...
Ouch! I agree, but I have to say...this applies to many other MAists, not just escrima.

The fact is, crosstraining is usually the best. Do the stick/knife work, striking, grappling, and supplement it with a strength/fitness routine.

There is nothing wrong with the drills. But, I highly recommend: break out of the "drills" and spar. Spar with the stick/knife and include kicking, punching, and grappling.
 
Pahtoocara said:
Ouch! I agree, but I have to say...this applies to many other MAists, not just escrima.
Click to expand...

Heh. Yeah, to be fair, I was comparing them to some of the most physically-demanding systems like boxing & wrestling. I'm sure FMA is not any worse than any other number of systems out there.
 
Thanks for the responses guys! I'll probably start Pekiti Tirsia Kali sometime this summer. Once I've got a full enough grasp of Kali, I'll probably end up going 50/50 Kali/BJJ or Kali/Muay Thai so that I have something to supplement my studies. I'm pretty sure that I've found a school that teaches all three. I also think that I'll be going to the gym at this point. I was hoping that I'd be able to get most of my workout for off season done during class, but it doesn't look to be that way.

Thanks again!
 
In general I would agree about the older styles teaching weapons fairly early on in the training regime. However, go along to any modern Japanese/Chinese school of martial arts and its a fair bat that you will be taught empty hands first and foremost, even with wu shu as practiced in China today you first larn empty handed patterns and sets before taking up your first weapon.

Conversly, go along to any FMA class and I will bet $100.00 that you will start weapons training on your very first session. (you don't have to take me up on the bet!!).

I think the reason weapons were taught early on in the more traditional styles Okinawan/Chinese was more to do with the environment of warfair where fighting with weapons was common and the empty hands were a back up to that weapon (this is true of old European arts as well).

These days fighting (aside from actual war) is done within a sporting arena with rules and regulations and you are not required to kill your opponent nor he, you). Until the development of modern safety equipment this has been difficult to achieve with weapons. (even the dog brothers wear helmets and elbow and knee pads).

I do accept however, that if you take up Iaido or Kendo or their Jitsu conterparts you will learn the sword first but thats the nature of the art.

I do have to say as well that personnaly, I think that in many ways, teaching weapons first within modern FMA systems has in some way done FMA some disservice as now most people believe it to be only a weapons based martial art (thats most lay people and uniformed martial artists).

Still I love FMA and enjoy the variety and freedom within its structure.
 
I know what you mean stickmaster, I think an excelllent mix would be the old traditional bujutsu of Japan and FMA, but it would need a whole lifetime plus a lot more!!

What do you train in?
 
I train in Doce Pares Eskrima under Grandmaster 'Cacoy' Canete. I have been training FMA since 1979 and traveling to the Philippines for the past 10 plus years. Now I am lucky enough to live here and travel back periodically to the UK to teach seminars and conduct grade testing's.

Whats your background?
 
I've done various arts over the years, but I have rescentley started some JKD/Kali classes, its sort of reminds me of the freedom I got with the kickboxing classes I did years back, nice and flowing. But I also liked the iai Jutsu I did as well, nice clean lines and cuts, I think the two arts compliment each other. I just like seeing what the different Arts have to offer I guess.

Wasn't Cacoy Canete in a Martial Arts program a few years back?
 
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