Monocrom said:
Although it seems trendy to bash them, it isn't just folks who need a beater and don't care about knives who like them.
Actually, folks that need a beater and don't care about knives are what S&W is all about. That is who they make knives for, and the vast majority of the time, that is who buys them. People that don't know better. Because there *IS* better. For the price, they are brands with better QC and materials.
Monocrom said:
1- Although the comfort of a thumbstud is subjective, the fact that an NIB, Al Mar Falcon peeled skin off of my thumb, after using the thumbstud, that is not subjective. The fact that a much less expensive ColdSteel Voyager's thumbstud didn't peel skin off of my thumb, that is also not subjective. Only a masochist would think that peeled skin is a comfortable feeling.
Whether that happened or not is objective, but I never said it wasn't. The point is that what hurts your thumb might not hurt mine. What feels good to you might hurt my thumb. So whether a given thumbstud is the best or the worst is subjective. Hence, it isn't the best criteria to recommend a knife based on. Instead, you should tell him what the shape is like so he can try to judge as best he can what it would feel like to him. The result with *YOUR* thumb doesn't do him much good.
Monocrom said:
2- While I am aware that hand-size varies, it's not as if I have mutant hands. I think the topic-starter should try out a S&W SWAT knife and decide for himself if it's comfortable. While I doubt that Taylor Cutlery invested a great deal of time to come up with an ergonomic handle, I also don't believe that it was a lucky fluke on their part.
I am saying he should try the knife out as well. It feeling good to you does not mean it will feel good to him. And a fluke is just what it is. Other companies devote more time to ergonomics than Taylor, and they end upw ith knives that feel better to *MOST PEOPLE*. So your minority opinion isn't a good thing to base a recommendation on.
Monocrom said:
3- When I mentioned rubber inserts, I did not mean a, for example, $3 no-name, el-cheapo from a flea market. Yes, G-10 is definitely more durable. But, some prefer the advantages that rubber inserts offer, for maintaining a more solid grip on a folder. For those who prefer rubber inserts, yes; the S&W SWAT knives do represent a good bargain.
Most do not feel rubber offers a more solid grip than G-10. And no, the S&W SWAT knives are not a good bargain. Cheap materials that are generally disliked.... for a reletively high price versus the superior competition? That is a poor bargain. Yes, if someone likes rubber inserts it isn't as bad, but there are still better knives with rubber inserts for the same price and lower.
Monocrom said:
4- My electrician friend would definitely disagree with you about edge holding. I remember him telling me how he loved the fact that it took a good, long while before he had to resharpen his knife. He used it everyday, and he definitely used it for "real work." And, although I've used an Opinel on a few occassions; I'd rather use a S&W SWAT for heavy work. Nothing against Opinel, but the rotating, collar-style lock on Opinel knives seems thin. While excellent for light to medium duty jobs, I wouldn't use one for heavy work.
What is your friend comparing it to? I have friends that say their crap knife is great... but they don't know crap.
An Opinel isn't a hard-use knife. Neither is a S&W.
Monocrom said:
5- Please allow me to clarify. "Solid Lockup," to me, means literally that! As in zero play when the blade is locked open. I don't know what an acceptable amount of play is, for others. But for me, it means none at all! "Putting it through Hell" means that, as an electrician, he uses his knife many times a day; to cut through materials that would cause a poor-quality knife to not even last to the end of the day......... In his line of work, a knife that is good enough to get the job done, day in and day out, well; that definitely means it's not junk!
Solid lockup, to me, means MORE than zero play. It means a lock that will withstand a lot of load. You think a poor quality knife wouldn't last a day? I disagree. Poor quality knives are far better than most people (and you) think. I have used total junk very hard for years and had it never fail. S&W is only a step above that junk. Lasting more than a day doesn't mean it isn't junk.
Monocrom said:
Like you, my friend has moved on to better-quality, and more expensive knives. (I told him to check out Benchmade, and he liked what he saw)! Despite the fact that he has better taste, he doesn't think of his S&W SWAT knife as junk. (No doubt some would argue that because he hasn't climbed aboard the "S&W knives are junk" bandwagon, his tastes haven't improved).
But I never said that everyone else was wrong about S&W knives as soley a matter of fact. I said that my personal experiences with these knives is the opposite of what others are claiming. My experiences, and that of my friend's, has been positive.
As I mentioned at the end of my previous post, I can recommend S&W SWAT knives if the topic-starter is willing to live with the disadvantages. If not, I still say he should take a look at something from Spyderco. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding that may have resulted from my previous post.
Personally, I never said S&W was junk. They are a step above junk. Seems like a small difference, but it isn't. I never said an S&W will not last a day. They can last a very long time and perform tasks very well. I have always said that even total junk will do 99% of what 99% of people need to do. But that doesn't mean they aren't junk. S&W is better than junk, but like I said, don't pretend it is as good as Spyderco, which he can get for the same price.
I defend S&W more than most people. I disagre with the people that say an S&W will fall apart in your hand or cut your fingers off. That's pure BS from people that are ignorant about very low-end knives and perhaps want to feel elitist. But I am a realist. How can I suggest a $40 (or even a $20) S&W when Spyderco and BM make knives for the same price with better materials and a better fit and finish?
Just because a S&W will survive your friend's "hellish tests" and has done fine in your "experience" doesn't mean there are not better options for most people. We don't know what he will prefer, so we can only make suggestions and hope he gives them all a fair chance and gets the one that is best for him. Maybe he will like Byrd, maybe he will like S&W. But given information on all of the options, he will *probably* not prefer S&W as S&W just has a lot less going for it in the opinion of *most* informed knife knuts.
You have spent all of this time listing reasons he may actually want an S&W, such as the thumbstuds not hurting your thumb, when you could have been giving the pros and cons of knives that he would *probably* rather have.
Are you trying to help him, or just further an agenda to make S&W seem better than most people feel it is? Do you really think the chance that a Red Class BM or a Byrd Spyderco, at half the cost of a SWAT S&W, will hurt his thumbs and be less comfortable to him for a lack of rubber inserts, and that these factors will be more important than the better edge retention, build quality, and warrenty of the Byrd or BM?
If someone finds the look of that SWAT S&W (in the link) to be dead sexy, feels they need rubber inserts, and likes how it feels. Yeah, they should probably get it if they really prefer it over a Pika or a Raven or whatever. But I think such a creature is a pretty rare person and that most S&W buyers do so because they are not informed on the other options and the reasons they are seen as better knives.
If you are one of the rare ones, more power to you. But try to make suggestions for the good of the buyer based on objective things and explain to him the difference on the subjective issues (so he can decide which he prefers) instead of telling him which you prefer.
To make an analogy, S&W is like a $20K Kia. Byrd or Red Class is like a $15 Civic or Focus. Yes there are many subjective criteria, and some people will prefer the Kia. But which is generally seen as a better car? Which has better objective performance?
So isn't telling someone about how the Civic hurts your thumb and the Focus makes your back hurt not very useful?
Wouldn't it be more useful to them to explain the objective advantages of the Civic and Focus and leave them to decide whether their thumb hurts or not? I think they can tell.
Whether your thumb hurts or not doesn't really help them, especially since your thumb skin problem seems to be EXTREMELY uncommon.
What is also uncommon is your respect of rubber inserts, your opinion on S&W ergos versus Spyderco and BM, and your friend's opinion on S&W's 440C. That doesn't mean you are wrong. Never said you were. But I don't see why you are defending S&W.
One man's junk is another man's treasure. Just because a junk knife (or rather, a step above junk knife) meets your very specific and strange criteria doesn't mean it isn't junk.
I am not saying you should never suggest S&W. Respect what you like- maybe he will like it too. I am saying you shouldn't waste your time defending S&W against charges such as "they are junk" because your extremely uncommon opinions are not going to change the fact that they are very sub-par compared to the competition in objective ways and in the opinion of almost everyone.
i.e. if someone wants to know what to eat, you can suggest they eat poop if you like to eat poop. *MAYBE* they will like it too. But don't get all defensive when someone says that poop tastes like poop. You may like S&W, but it is poop to most people. You may like eating poop more than crab, but most people think poop does tastes pretty bad.
Or so I have heard.
I think our job is to give him suggestions and general information, and if possible to give as much objective information for comparison as possible (such as specs). I do not think it is very useful to tell him that some thumbstuds hurt your thumb.
Let him see what he likes. Telling him what you like doesn't help.
Is it better to say "Get a black Military because it is black and I like black" or to explain the differences between a Military and whatever else he is considering (such as weight, length, steel etc...) and leave him to decide what looks better and feels better?
He and he alone can decide what looks and feels better to him. Or what hurts *HIS* thumb.
