Looking for a maker to grind 7 straight razor blades

G

Gawker

Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
360
Title says it all guys. I'm looking for someone to grind some blades for a straight razor set. I'll be providing materials from another source for this so all I'm looking for is a steady hand and a brave disposition to grind them out.

Blades would be full hollow ground from 1x6x.25 stock to appx 7/8 inch wide and probably a little under the quarter inch thick. The process involves grinding the material AFTER heat treating and therefore requires a water cooled grinder to avoid hurting the temper.

I already talked to Darren Ellis about this but he asked more than I can afford so here's an ad for others to step up. Thanks in advance guys.
 
What type of steel, and to what grit do you want the blades finished?

if you drop me a pm, mabey we can work something out

Ken
 
Haven't got PM status yet. I'm going to upgrade my account this year once the weather warms up and the off duty jobs start coming in. Here is the kicker on this though...the specs are very rigid on the finished product because I actually intend to USE these when they're done. Blade finish isn't actually something I've thought about much actually...I've been to concerned with finding someone who could DO the grinding to consider that aspect of things. I'm most likely going to be purchasing damascus from Del Ealy and seeing as I'm not really aware of the minute details in knife making I'm not sure what kind of finish is required to best make use of the patterns in the damascus steel. Do you satin finish it before you etch? Mirror polish then etch? Grind it to 600 and etch? I really have no idea...any idea?
 
So, let me get this straight, Darren Ellis is priced out of your reach, so you come here wanting some starving maker, with very good skills, to follow an unbending set of specifications, on a mystery metal, with a water cooled grinder, which very few people have, as they are not really needed by good makers to grind tempered steel, but then you also don't want to listen to anybody else's opinions or suggestions either, and you want all this all done really, really cheaply.

Yeah,...........It could happen!!:rolleyes::barf:
 
Outch...somehow I keep managing to tick somebody off...:(

I forgot to mention in the original post what the material was. That's my fault for typing tired. Probably also my fault for not being a knifemaker and thinking about what difference the material makes in the process for the maker.

Where did I not listen to suggestions? Mike have I pissed you off somewhere and I don't remember somehow? I'm not really sure where I managed to set off your hostility button but I'm sorry wherever it was.

No I can't afford Mr Ellis' quote and even so what's so wrong with shopping around a little bit? Do you buy your stock the first place you find it or do you look for the best price? I don't personally consider the price I was quoted as being cheap...probably WORTH it, but at that cost I couldn't afford to do the set. That's why I'm trying to get a second opinion. If the second opinion is around the same as the first then I'll know more than I know now and scrap the project. I don't consider myself stupid but I guess I should have thought maybe ignorance could get me flamed...

/me dons flame retardent suit for the rebuttal...

I never said the specs were unbending I just said they can't vary to the point of no longer being a working razor.
 
I'm not really ticked off, but I guess it did look that way, sorry.

But I do want any maker that decides to try and tackle this job to be aware of exactly what they're getting into. Making 7 of anything alike is taxing to an experienced maker.
Unless a new maker had access to CAD/CAM it would be next to impossible, and all the time they are attempting this, they're burning time which is money.

If the maker screws up one of he blades, since they were furnished by you already heat treated, he's liable to have to pay for this material and to have the new piece heat treated. It could prove a very expensive proposition for a newer maker.

A more experienced one will quote a price commensurate with the work expected, like Darren did.

On the subject of water cooled grinders, I know very few makers with anything like that, though most malers will grind certain sizes or designs of knives from a heat treared blank with no trouble. You just grind bare handed and dip the material a lot.

The type of steel and how it was HT'd and tempered(tempering temperature) also has a lot to do with the temperature the steel can be brought to before the temper is affected. Some are lower than others.
 
I see what you mean...however any error in my head stem from my ignorance of the knife making process. Believe me that's something I hope to cure someday. What I MEANT to say is the process is MOST GENERALLY accomplished with a dual wheel counter rotating compound water cooled grinder.

My assumption that metal was metal was unfounded and just to cover THAT angle the stock I'm looking at is Mr Delbert Ealy's damascus billets composed of various combinations of 01, L6, and pure nickel. I've come to the conclusion that this combination will produce a very good razor after discussion with members of the straight shaving community.

YES the final grinding on these razors is generally water cooled but I believe after speaking to other people about this project that the process could easily be roughed out using annealed billets and the hollow grind could be STARTED while still in the annealed state before hardening leaving enough material for the item to be hardened effectively. This would leave much less material to be removed POST hardening which would make the process even less difficult. I hadn't thought about grinding with a bucket of water nearby to quench things though that WOULD be an effective way of accomplishing the same end result without the extra equipment.

This thread was actually meant to bring makers in that might be willing to attempt this where the little details could be discussed and ironed out along with my ignorance as necessary. It got kinda hot all of a sudden but actually Mike I'm glad you burned me on the little stupid things I said as it has taught me some details I wasn't aware of, and it actually has helped refine the possible process of DOING this project. I'm happy to see you signed in on the Jackass thread already or this could be considered your formal invitation :D

For anybody else bothering to read this thread please be aware of the discussion to refine the process involved to decide if you think you'd be up to trying this. I'm not out to screw any "starving makers" or get this done on the cheap...in fact this was initially supposed to be a thread for DISCUSSING those inherant problems to AVOID screwing anybody...and I just want to say again that Mr Ellis simply quoted me more than I can afford to put into the project for 7 blades. If nobody can do this then I'll just have a single razor done to soothe my interest and Darren will most likely be the guy to do the work.

As for holding the maker responsible...would you believe I assumed that if anyone was ballsy enough to attempt this I'd pay for the time and a comparable NON-damascus less expensive stock for a trial run and eat the cost of a botched job? Guess I'm not in the right mindset but that just seems like the right thing to do...if I'm asking for something as far out of the ordinary as I am wouldn't it make sense to go into it assuming the chances of accomplishing it are low? If razors were easy or the machinery widely available I wouldn't have started this thread. I hope this jaunt off the main topic hasn't scared anyone from discussing the possiblity of trying this project as I've no better place to go to find other makers.
 
Gawker said:
............................

My assumption that metal was metal was unfounded and just to cover THAT angle the stock I'm looking at is Mr Delbert Ealy's damascus billets composed of various combinations of 01, L6, and pure nickel. I've come to the conclusion that this combination will produce a very good razor after discussion with members of the straight shaving community.

.........................
I'm happy to see you signed in on the Jackass thread already or this could be considered your formal invitation :D

....................................
Click to expand...


There's a reason that straight razors are made with regular steel. If so called damascus(just pattern welded steels) was that great, they'd of never quit making cutlery from it.

As far as the jackass thing, always glad to be of service.:jerkit:
 
Try asking Darrell Ralph. I know he has posted regarding his study of the the geometry involved in making a straight razor, so he may be far enough along - and/or interested - in doing the project.

Straight razors are MUCH more difficult to design and make than may be apparent through casual observation. I don't know how to make a razor myself allthough I have ground and made 100s of knives.

If you get someone without razor experience, you may well end up with unusable razors.

Jürgen Schanz here in Germany is skilled at making razors too. You can find his site through Google.

I doubt if any of these guys will be inexpensive. Razor making is not exactly a "lost" art but it is is a bit misplaced. :D Skill and experience are still worth the money.

Good luck with your project.
 
Yeah I already talked with Darrel as he was my first choice for this...but he's over booked. Too bad cause it could have saved me from getting ripped apart in this thread. I'm not quite ready to give up yet though I'm starting to lose faith. Damn Gillette...
 
If you are looking for a using razor, I am not sure that Damascus is the best idea. Now, I have used Delbert's damascus on a number of projects, and found it to be clean, and well made, but sooner or later some of that pure nickel will run across the edge, since it is much softer, it will wear faster, and may leave a dimple that will catch hair instead of cutting it. My own razor is O1, I have never made a damascus razor for that reason, I want a completely straight edge.
Also for your information, material and finish can mean a lot to a maker, as some of the high alloy steels, once hardened, eat through belts like they were free. and some are very difficult to get past a satin finish.
 
I'm starting to reconsider the damscus...not because of price because I'd love the looks of it...but because so many people consider it an inferior razor material. I would have assumed that with modern techniques the foul ups could be minimized but I'm getting the feeling that's not the case.

IronWolf would you consider sharing some input on this since you seem game to try? Let's consider the damscus dropped...it's very beautiful but also very pricy and since I'm wanting a set of USERS it might be a poor choice. Therefore let me put the question forward in another manner...

What steels do YOU feel would make a very nice razor? Within those options what kind of finishes can be had? If I suggested I might want a gleaming mirror polish? Satin finish? What do you think would be a nice finish FOR a razor? At this point I'm open to any kind of suggestions simply because my ignorance has ruffled feathers inadvertantly already and maybe if I just let things go I'll end up with a nicer end product than if I fight to get things my way.
 
I already had sent Gawker a PM explaining the unsuitability of his desire to do this in damascus.I also told him that it would start a hubbub on the forum if he put it up here.Live and learn!

1095,mirror polish - no other good choice for a razor.
 
bladsmth said:
I already had sent Gawker a PM explaining the unsuitability of his desire to do this in damascus.I also told him that it would start a hubbub on the forum if he put it up here.Live and learn!

1095,mirror polish - no other good choice for a razor.
Click to expand...

I don't get PMs sorry...I would have liked to get your advice when it was sent to avoid this. Hopefully I'll get to upgrade my membership this year.
 
San Mia would work fine.
It is matter of getting the right cost and the right steel for the core and outside layering.

Gawker
Don't take any of the banter to heart. It is just the internet.
Remember that our problems are so small in comparison to folks in the sand box and in other places in the world that are not good.
This will help you and others with prospective of the situation.
 
:D Hi Darrel...not concerned with the banter so much as I would have preferred more CONSTRUCTIVE banter. I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been...but who starts out their threads

"Hi I know absolutely nothing at all that pertains to anything in the question I'm about to ask but..."

;) I just assumed you guys already KNEW I was stupid:foot:
 
There's no reason why damascus made of 2 high carbon toolsteels won't make a good razor. All damascus doesnt have nickel in it. It depends on which steels are chosen for the mixture. The contrast once etched may not be as high, but it can still look great. I have used damascus made from 52100 and O2 that cuts great. Try some of Marcus Balbach's Leopard tank barrel damascus.

Another choice would be Damasteel which is powder versions of ATS34 and 12C27. I doubt it would take as fine an edge as carbon steel, but it would be worth a try.
 
Yes, Darrel, San mai would work great, forgot about that. And Kevin you have a point that not all damascus has nickel, but was responding to the idea of using Del's O1/L6/nickel since that had been mentioned earlier.

now then, the rest of this may get a little long... I want to start by saying that my razor(and so far my only razor)was made differently than most of the ones that I have seen, but then, I made it for myself. I had examined razors that were hollow ground on what looked like a 10" wheel and had a 1/8" or 5/32" spine, some were a little thicker than others. but this gave the razors a thin edge that could be honed several times before it began to lose effectiveness. Since I did not have a good contact wheel at that time, and quite frankly do not like hollow grinding, I changed direction. I started with 3/32" thick 3/4" high flat ground to a zero edge. the only bevel I have on my razor is the one that the stropping leaves. When it comes time to actually hone it again, I lay the entire face of the razor on my diamond stone and sharpen it that way, keeping my original angle, but thinning the blade ever so slightly with each full sharpening. The finish on it is 720 grit as that is the fine diamond grit(the coarse is 350). While a mirror polish may look great on a razor, any polish above the cutting edge will not help the cutting at all, a high polish may help some steels resist staining longer though.

Now, to open a can of worms :) I feel that a carbon steel is better than a stainless steel for a razor. It is possible to get a shaving edge on a SS blade, but SS and a lot of other higher alloy steels like to form carbides that are larger than the edge that I want for shaving, I feel that a simple steel can be sharpened to a finer edge that will make shaving easier, with less pulling. I also feel that if you are taking the time to shave with a straight razor, you can also take the time to wipe your razor dry, and when necessary oil it, thus also preventing rust.
I can also vouch for the ability of SS to shave with, as several times in the past, when I worked in SS construction, I left for a two week trip without a razor. being stubborn, instead of buying a disposeable razor, I would sharpen and strop my Leatherman main blade and shave with that.
 
IronWolf said:
And Kevin you have a point that not all damascus has nickel, but was responding to the idea of using Del's O1/L6/nickel since that had been mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...

My reply was confusingly worded, I appologize. I do totally agree with you that using any damascus containing nickel or non-hardening steel in the mix would make a terrible razor.

I also think carbon steel will make a finer shaving, better blade than stainless.

Perhaps ZDP-189 would be a laminate to try?
 
Darrel Ralph said:
San Mia would work fine.
It is matter of getting the right cost and the right steel for the core and outside layering.

Gawker
Don't take any of the banter to heart. It is just the internet.
Remember that our problems are so small in comparison to folks in the sand box and in other places in the world that are not good.
This will help you and others with prospective of the situation.
Click to expand...

You are wise Yoda.:thumbup: Good way to look at it.
 
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