Looking for a specific fighting dagger

M

mrpinkbullets

Joined
Dec 3, 2009
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121
I'm researching for a film right now, and I need a mid-size dagger for one of the characters. We're looking for a strict fighting knife, with no concessions made for utility use. The Extrema Ratio ADRA catches my eye, but at 12.75" it's a little bit too large. I'm hoping for something in the 10" overall range. It should be "tactical" in appearance- all black if possible, although I can accept a non-blackened blade. Handle must NOT be round. A skull-crusher pommel would be nice, but not necessary. Full tang and quality construction are a must. Again, we don't want a utility knife, simply an effective "killing" tool that is built very well and can withstand hard thrusts, as through Kevlar or thick nylon webbing. A well-designed multi-draw sheath would be a bonus, but not a necessity, as we may have a custom sheath made anyway.

Price is not a huge concern, but let's keep it in the $400 range. Less expensive knives are also acceptable, so long as they are of sufficient quality. The knife may be custom or production, made by any manufacturer anywhere in the world. The ER knife is basically perfect for our needs, but it's just too big.
 
How about a knife that has actually been used by real commandos to kill in war?

Fairbairn sykes is the knife that defined the combat knife. It'd look pretty cool to have the sheath stitched upside-down to your gear or jacket. The VG-42 is another version that is pretty nasty and only useful for killing.

Other versions would be the Gerber MKII and the EK wasp-waisted commando knife.
 
CWL said:
Fairbairn sykes is the knife that defined the combat knife. [...] The VG-42 is another version that is pretty nasty and only useful for killing.

Other versions would be the Gerber MKII and the EK wasp-waisted commando knife.
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Personally, I have a love affair with the original F-S design, and also the Mark II and the Ek version. Here are my issues with those pieces:

- The original F-S is far too weak for what we're looking for. It's a rat-tail tang, the steel quality was uneven at times, and it generally was not produced with durability in mind. I also don't like the narrow, round handle, which is not suitable for use with gloves and difficult to orient blind. In my experience, the perfectly round handle also makes it difficult to change from a forward to reverse grip- there's no good place to pinch. The character who will be using the knife is one of those high-speed operator types: Crye gear, Oakley goggles, and plasticky European submachine guns. It wouldn't make sense for him to go with an original F-S for aesthetic reasons, but also because in the character's mindset, I doubt he would choose a 70-year-old knife that makes no concessions for use with gloves or updated modern fighting styles.

- The Gerber Mark II looks great, but it's a little too big. I'm also not a fan of 440C, and especially not the 420HC and the godawful serration pattern that Gerber uses on the newest version. Also, rat-tail tang.

- The EK F-S MkII is a gorgeous knife and is of very high quality. Although it's old, I think it's still an excellent design. My only gripe is that it is a very typically "American" knife. We're okay choosing American-made kit for our character, but we want to avoid anything that shouts "US military" to be consistent with the character's covert background.
 
gargoyle3 said:
Cold Steel or http://sogknives.com/store/FX-10.html
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That FX-10 looks just like an Eickhorn dagger that I also like. A little too much like a bayonet for my taste, but the Eickhorn is a very fine piece. I just don't like SOG very much- this one is fine, but a lot of their knives are a little bit on the tacky side, and of course I doubt that our movie character would be in the market for a $50 Chinese-made piece as his primary fighting dagger. The only SOG I own is a Flash II- I've given away all my others- and that's only for sentimental reasons, since it was the first knife I ever bought.

Thanks for the recommendation, though.
 
Have you checked out the Emerson "skull dagger"?
Minimalist and the real deal.
Better buy two so you can dull the edges of one to use for filming and one so you carry it once you fall in love with it.

CP
 
EDDAKA said:
Ka-bar's, any karambit....

Boker Desert Dagger looks pretty mean.
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The Ka-Bar is a utility knife and is totally unsuited for fighting. Plus, I've just never liked the Bowie design. It's a tough knife, but not what I'm looking for.

Karambits are basically the opposite: they're fighters and they have almost no utility purpose. I love them, and I have a few of my own, but what I'm looking for here is a dagger. I would like to outfit my character with a karambit of some sort (probably one of the nicer customs), but as it stands there aren't any scenes in the script that call for that kind of knife-fighting.

The scene in which the knife will be featured is a conventional "sentry removal", which generally calls for a dagger. The character will draw his knife in a hammer grip, approach the target from behind, thrust the knife into the side of the target's neck, and saw the knife forward to cut through the throat. After the target is down, the character will kneel down, rotate the knife into a reverse grip, take a beat to check his surroundings, and then wipe off the knife and sheath it. Also, he wears the knife horizontally across his belt, on the right side of the small of his back- like Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell. I've decided that this is the best carry method that allows him to draw with either a forward or reverse grip.
 
Have you checked out the Emerson "skull dagger"?
Minimalist and the real deal.
Better buy two so you can dull the edges of one to use for filming and one so you carry it once you fall in love with it.

CP
 
cp2u said:
Have you checked out the Emerson "skull dagger"?
Minimalist and the real deal.
Better buy two so you can dull the edges of one to use for filming and one so you carry it once you fall in love with it.

CP
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I've seen that- it's a little small for my taste, and the blade/handle ratio isn't "aesthetically" pleasing, but I certainly have no doubts about the performance. I've been an Emerson cheerleader for a long time, and I'm a big fan of Ernest and his knives.

No matter what knife we choose, we will be acquiring at least two or three copies for production. One will be an untouched, properly sharpened "hero" knife that looks correct in close-ups. The rest will be, as you said, dulled down so that they can be used and beat around. We'll also have to cast a few resin and rubber dummies. And of course, as a knife guy, I will have to get one for myself as well!
 
mrpinkbullets said:
I've seen that- it's a little small for my taste, and the blade/handle ratio isn't "aesthetically" pleasing, but I certainly have no doubts about the performance. I've been an Emerson cheerleader for a long time, and I'm a big fan of Ernest and his knives.

No matter what knife we choose, we will be acquiring at least two or three copies for production. One will be an untouched, properly sharpened "hero" knife that looks correct in close-ups. The rest will be, as you said, dulled down so that they can be used and beat around. We'll also have to cast a few resin and rubber dummies. And of course, as a knife guy, I will have to get one for myself as well!
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ATTA BOY!!!
How to I get in on this sweet gig!?!
Keep us posted. If there is anything we like as much as using knives it's watching others using them convincingly.
 
cp2u said:
ATTA BOY!!!
How to I get in on this sweet gig!?!
Keep us posted. If there is anything we like as much as using knives it's watching others using them convincingly.
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Thanks! I'm a huge stickler for detail in my films. For example, the particular scene I'm describing occurs at night, and the date in the movie is roundabout mid-November of 2011. I had one of my crew check an almanac to make sure we have the correct moon phase and position in the sky when we shoot the exteriors. I'm having my actor wear all his wardrobe, including his tactical gear, for a few weeks before we start shooting, so he feels comfortable and doesn't look like "a guy wearing movie clothes". We can't afford any professional firearms training, but as I am very competent in firearms I'll be doing a few weeks of training with my actors as well. My character's EDC knife will be a Large Seb 21 with ambi silver thumb lugs (just like mine, except mine is a Small). Using the right kind of lube, Sebenzas are flickable, and I'm having the actor practice until he gets his thumb work down just right.

Cross your fingers for me that we get some more money. We're in preproduction now, and the project is at about 60% funding. As soon as we fill in the money gaps, we'll be able to move onto shooting this thing.
 
mrpinkbullets said:
The Ka-Bar is a utility knife and is totally unsuited for fighting.
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Huh? :confused:
The Mark II (KaBar) is a multipurpose combat knife that is very capable in both the utilitarian role and in the role of a weapon. That is why it has endured as the standard issue knife for the US Marines since WWII. It is indeed very suited for fighting. As for the coolness factor for those viewing the movie, it would perform well, because it is intimidating without looking like something out of the Budk catalog (Yes, I know it's in the BudK catalog). Additionally, it comes in all different styles, traditional leather, krayton handle, Next Gen. I hear the KaBar Fighter performs well too. Just the way I see it.

If you're set on a dagger style though, you might check out some of Ontario's Spec Plus line, for Example SP3 or SP15 L.S.A. http://www.ontarioknife.com/specplus_pg2.html. Maybe something from Boker, they have a few similar to the WWI Trench knife. You should also look at the SOG Agency or Pentagon knives. Also, the Gerber MK II (different from the USMC MK II).
 
Have you looked at a MercWorx Shiva? Big, solid dagger, not too huge. It's 11", so slightly longer then you're looking for, but not by much. Its always been one of my favorite 'cool' daggers, and I think it's extremely 'aestetically pleasing.'

http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=29

Description: The Shiva is a beautiful, bilaterally symmetrical double edged dagger, with a 6.5 inch blade. Ostensibly designed for the same mission parameters as the legendary Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Knife, it has a number of significant design improvements which broaden its functional scope considerably. Most notable perhaps, is the handle, which flares out from a gentle lemon-drop to a knob-like pommel, which greatly facilitates a firm grip, and almost eliminates the problem of rolling in the palm, when the blade is subjected to torquing stress. The blade is hand ground from 1/4 inch stock, and the geometry of the double hollow ground edges make them both striking in appearance and singularly functional. The Shiva gives you the best attributes of a stabbing pike and a straight razor.

Dimensions: 11"
Blade length: 6.5"
Materials:
• Handcrafted in the USA
• 154CM
• RC 58
• Cyrogenically Treated
• Micarta Handle
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GWashington1732 said:
The Mark II (KaBar) is a multipurpose combat knife that is very capable in both the utilitarian role and in the role of a weapon. That is why it has endured as the standard issue knife for the US Marines since WWII.
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Multipurpose is correct, but weapon is not so much. I may have exaggerated when I called the Ka-Bar "totally" unsuited for fighting, but its design does not meet the requirements for most commonly used and effective fighting styles. Generally, you want a blade that is lightweight and durable, but there is no need for balls-out toughness. The blade itself should be at least 4" or 5", but in most cases there is no need for a blade over 7". The knife should be well-balanced and light in weight to facilitate quick strikes. The handle should be constructed so that the user can determine the blade's orientation in the dark, without looking. The handle should also afford a moderate amount of grip, and be designed to function in both forward and reverse grips. It should not be perfectly round, as a round grip makes it difficult to manipulate the handle when changing grips. A sharp, piercing tip is critical, as piercing attacks are far more lethal than slashing attacks.

Overall, the Ka-Bar does not meet these requirements. Mostly, it's the modified Bowie shape that is unsuited for fighting. It's thick and heavy, and it does not allow for easy piercing. It's not a "quick" knife- a fighter with even basic training can strike you three or four times with a F-S in the time it takes to stab and retract a Ka-Bar.

As far as being the issue knife for the Marines, we all know that the military does not get the best- they get the best bid. Of course, the Ka-Bar is a very fine knife, but Marines, like the vast majority of soldiers, use their knives for utility work, and very few of them will ever have the opportunity or ability to willingly use them as offensive or defensive weapons.

So who uses a purpose-built fighting knife? Commandos, special operations troops, and a very small number of "other" covert operator types. These people do not use their fighting knives to pry open crates or baton wood. Their knives have only one purpose: to be inserted deep into someone's body. They fight almost exclusively by stabbing, not slashing, and so they want knives with a point and not a belly. The most effective and popular way to kill someone is what I described in my other comment- to stab horizontally into the neck and lay open the throat. A Ka-Bar will not do that easily. For that purpose, you need a thin, light dagger.
 
corwise said:
Have you looked at a MercWorx Shiva? Big, solid dagger, not to huge. It's 11", so slightly longer then you're looking for, but not by much. Its always been one of my favorite 'cool' daggers, and I think it's extremely 'aestetically pleasing.'

http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=29
Click to expand...

I've had a raging boner for the Shiva ever since I first saw it, and I can't believe I didn't think of it for this project. Probably it's because it looks too "pretty" to me, and because it's a little oversized. The blade is also a little wider than I'd like- I don't really need the ice-pick profile of, say, the Extrema Ratio Suppressor, but the F-S is a good model for what we're looking for.

All that being said, I might just end up picking the Shiva anyway. I want to try to promote a knife that I like, and in my opinion the Shiva is the most beautiful fixed-blade ever made. Aside from the blade width, it does also fit the requirements of a "killing knife" very well

MercWorx will do custom work, right? Do you think they might do two or three Shivas with blackened blades for me? Also, I seem to recall that they're based in NJ (which their phone area code confirms), and that's not a far drive for me. Do you know where they're based, and whether they're okay with walk-ins?

Thank you, thank you for reminding me about this fantastic piece.
 
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