Looking for knowledge

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by R Hensley, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. R Hensley

    R Hensley

    29
    Jan 9, 2020
    I called Frost this morning and ask about the steel in my German Bull knives and the Buck Creek knife. I was told by a what sounded like a very young lady she didn't know and would check with someone and get back with me. I was in a business so I didn't have access to a computer or pen and paper. When she called me back (surprised me) she said the one of German bull and the buck creek knife was 440 and the German Bull muskrat was 4116 German steel. I being caught off guard and not at home wrote these no. down. Now I'm home and trying to research these metals. I wasn't told what 440 steel it was so I've got a call back to Frost. I'm getting mixed info on the 4116GS. one sight says it for the kitchen and other said it was fair for a knife. Being new to the forum I really don't know how to research here. Any Ideas on this subject.
     
  2. slyraven

    slyraven

    326
    Feb 19, 2019
    Frost cutlery is generally using the cheapest steels they can find. 440 is not a very good steal in MOST cases.
     
  3. marcinek

    marcinek Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 9, 2007
    Depends on how "into" steel you are.

    440 could mean anything. 4116 is a specific type of steel.

    Will your knives cut stuff? Sure. Will they take and hold an edge? Sure.

    But they aren't the most "sexy, new hotness" steels.
     
  4. michaelm466

    michaelm466

    Mar 5, 2009
    The 4116 is "Krupp 4116" Cold Steel uses it in several of their knives, 440 is most likely 440A the lower end of the 440 series 440C being the higher end, so the C is usually included if it is that. Both are similar, stainless, easy to sharpen, low edge retention.
     
  5. marcinek

    marcinek Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 9, 2007
    But Frost sells (and has sold) a ton of knives. So the steels they used were sufficient for many happy Frost customers.

    Are they good enough for @R Hensley ? Who knows? Don't know anything about the dude.
     
  6. slyraven

    slyraven

    326
    Feb 19, 2019
    That's true, nothing against frost cutlery, just giving what I have noticed about the bulk of their knives. I'm sure they have some gems out there.

    In my experience, 440 steel mostly means the cheap 440, not the nice 440c, but I could be wrong on the particular models that the OP has.
     
    marcinek likes this.
  7. skyhorse

    skyhorse Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 30, 2010
    You're getting the typical stainless steel as in many brands like Victorinox or Case , not to worry it will serve you well.
     
  8. slyraven

    slyraven

    326
    Feb 19, 2019
    You would think that with the higher cost of these knives that they would put the exact type of 440 instead of listing it as stainless steel.
     
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  9. herisson

    herisson Apple slicing rocking chair dweller Platinum Member

    Mar 11, 2013
    440 is a generic, suspicious, label that probably covers the cheapest available 440 steels (never 440C which is in a league of its own). And that's not so good. On the other hand, Krupp 4116 or 1.4116 is used massively in German kitchen cutlery (and has been used intensively by Cold Steel for their entry level ranges), all with great success. It's very stainless, easy to sharpen but doesn't hold an edge for ages. And there you are. To be honest, I do not think Frost Cutlery is a brand that cares much about the steel they use...
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
    Rhinoknives1 likes this.
  10. marcinek

    marcinek Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 9, 2007
    I agree, but my point is that "Will R Hensley think these steels are good?" is something we don't know, since we don't know him.

    I might think AUS-8 is good, but others here might think it is outdated and useless, you know?

    Maybe RH is a typical Frost user. Maybe he is a hard-core steel junkie.
     
  11. herisson

    herisson Apple slicing rocking chair dweller Platinum Member

    Mar 11, 2013
    Or he is looking for the best performing knife at the lowest price... Sure there are better options than Frost Cutlery out there.
     
    R Hensley likes this.
  12. R Hensley

    R Hensley

    29
    Jan 9, 2020
    Just got off the phone again with Frost. The German Bull 110 is the 4116GS. They said it was a little harder steel than 440C and would be hard to hone but would hold an edge. The German Bull mushrat would most likely be 440C and the Buck Creek 440C also. C is better than A in this case I'm told by Frost. I said in an earlier post that these last few knives will be my first attempt with stainless steel. I've used Carbon steel knives all my life until now. I hunt and fish a lot. Or did before I got old and wore out . I trapped some. My knife of choise most of those years was a Henckel Mushrat. I've wore 2 out along with Bokers and Hen & Roosters. I like for knife to hold an edge for a little while anyway. It's kind of like when I'm shaving. I don't want to have to stop in the middle of a shave and re-hone the razor. I never had much luck with honing the larger Bowie knives but 5 in blades down to what you would carry in you pocket never gave me any trouble. In refernce to Marcinek most of the time if it's sharp enough to cut a pc of bologna or cheese I'm happy:).
     
    marcinek likes this.
  13. unwisefool

    unwisefool Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 22, 2007
    It's honestly not worth your time to research it. You can get better knives that have known steel and heat treat for under $100.

    I'm not trying to be mean, but frost cutlery is junk. Last year I literally threw out about 40 of their knives that were brand new in box because they were useless and had no value.
     
  14. marcinek

    marcinek Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 9, 2007
    Nothing wrong with that!!! :thumbsup: Your knives will do that just fine! Enjoy them!
     
  15. marcinek

    marcinek Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 9, 2007
    It appears he has these knives and is researching the quality of the steels in them.
     
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  16. skyhorse

    skyhorse Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 30, 2010
    Found this article that basically sums it up. In the end we normally get what we pay for and for most needs it's usually just fine.
    v
    As a knife collector, you will want to know the types of steel used in the production of blades. Knife makers should share this information with honesty and integrity and some do. As it is, most of the high-end knife makers almost always tell you what type of steel is used. Mid-range and economy knives tend to be more nebulous in their approach.

    But even if you are told what type of steel is being used, you still need to know if it is a good steel or a bad steel for knife blades. Unless you know something about steel you won’t know a good blade form a bad one. At the same time knife collectors will also be quick to degrade certain types of steel based on personal bias and bad experience. This may lead to you passing up a good knife based on hearsay rather than honest appraisal.

    Simply put you should learn about steel but don’t be dissuaded from buying a knife based on what you’ve heard or read. There is probably more discussion on what type of steel makes a quality knife blade than any other topic in the knife collecting hobby. In the end, it really all comes down to this: Did the knife blade meet or exceed your expectations and were you satisfied or impressed with the outcome? If the answer is yes to both questions, then the steel in the knife is acceptable and worth the price you paid.

    You're going to hear a series of letters and or numbers thrown at you as well as some rather innocuous yet impressive words thrown at you: Things like X105CrMo17 or surgical steel or my favorite 420J2 Tool Steel. My advice to you is to look them up in the lexicon and find out what they are and what steel they compare to. The phrases are often meaningless, the letters and numbers are grades of steel as defined by various engineering as manufacturing bodies to actually allow people to know what kind of steel is being used in the steel industry. They are assigned by the ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials), BSI (British Standards Institute), ANSI (American National Standards Institute),AFNOR (Association française de Normalisation), JIS (Japanese Industrial Standards), and other official and quasi-governmental bodies. As the various standards organizations assign differing alpha-numeric codes, several steels with different codes are comparable to one another. To further complicate this alphabet soup of steel grades are proprietary names assigned by some knife makers.

    With that said, let's move on to some of the popular grades of steel found in some of the most popular knives made today.

    Many people will argue that 420HC and 440A are poor quality stainless steel yet this steel is used by some of the major knife manufacturers, worldwide including respected USA makers. Both steels are also required by many Government contracts including NATO and the U.S. Military..
     
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  17. R Hensley

    R Hensley

    29
    Jan 9, 2020
    I'm not a hard core steel junkie but I do like a good knife and have tried to keep a good one over the years. My hunting knife has been a Randal for the last 35 or so years and I've wore 2 Henckel Mushrat knives out on small game. I currently am carring a Boker Trapper carbon knife that does ok but not the same as the Henckel I've had many knives in the last 65 years that was ok but only a few that was what I consider great. everyone has there favorites. For most of my use I'm really partial to the Mushrat patern knife. For my type of skinning (squirrels rabbits etc) having two clip blades sharp is a plus. For deer the drop point blade does good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  18. R Hensley

    R Hensley

    29
    Jan 9, 2020
    Yes I bought them on impulse. The mushrat patern is my favorite and hard to find good ones that are reasonably priced. I watched a Henckel and german eye in the mushrat pattern sell for over 100 and wish now I had bought one. If these two don't do well I can alway give them to boys to play with. (They're in there 20's)
     
  19. R Hensley

    R Hensley

    29
    Jan 9, 2020
    I've thrown a few knives away myself but not having access to what most would call real quality you want know until you try one. The modern looking knives I see really don't fit me.I'm the old style looking knife type. I bought a kersaw folding pocket knife and kept it for about a month before giving to my brother who still has it. That was about 10 years ago.
     
  20. herisson

    herisson Apple slicing rocking chair dweller Platinum Member

    Mar 11, 2013
    Muskrat ? Go A.G. Russell ! Might be a tad pricier but there's some value !
    [​IMG]
     
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