Looking for recommendation on Steel for a Gyuto

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gratmars

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I have made a few kitchen knives out of various stainless steels, but want to make something for myself.
Carbon steel has caught my attention, but I'm not sure how thin I can take them before heat treat. Right now I'm working on my blanks that are heat treated 12c27, but it's taking a ton of work and time to grind. I am hoping that with the right carbon steel(Air hardening) I can do 80% of the grinding before heat treat.

Also, how do the carbon steels perform to some of the modern particle metal stainless steels?

I'm looking for something that takes an exceptional edge and retains it, I'm not concerned with ease of sharpening. The idea of a knife aging over time and developing a patina interests me greatly, however.

Thanks!
 
I'm it sure about how thin you can grind before heat treat but I've always been told that .0625" at the edge is good in order to prevent warping especially when working with thin stock found in kitchen knives. I recommend cruforge v. It is very tough, can take a very high hardness and hold an excellent edge due to the added vanadium...hand sanding it feels like sanding glass! If you want it to be easier to grind you could always make sanmai with low carbon on the outside...it takes significantly less time to grind because you only have to grind a small portion of hardened steel.

-Jeff


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I use a few steels for this application depending on what the customer wants. W2 is most common, great edge stability, fine grain and a killer hamon. 1095 is similar, but a little less than W2 in each area. Aeb-l is excellent for stainless. I've done a few in S35VN for those who prioritize wear resistance. It gets sharp enough, but you won't impress any sushi chefs with it. Hitachi white and blue are designed for fine stable edges. 52100 is excellent as well. For budget minded people, 15n20 is simple to heat treat and comes in thin stock.

For my own knives, I use W2 and hitachi blue. My earlier knives were O1 and 15n20 and I have no need to replace them. I have some blue with carbide banding that is unique. I want to do a few in hitachi white, but only have one bar left. Everything is Rc62+, except S35VN, which is Rc60/61.
 
As far as how thin the edge can be taken before HT, I have found this is very dependent upon not only the stock thickness (at the spine), but also how tall the blade is. But a general rule is not to go below 0.020". I use .020" myself. That is pretty much minimums, tho, as .015" will more than likely give you some degree of warp/bacon edge. .030" is fine. I don't see any need in going thicker than .030" at all, even with shallow hardening steels that need a fast quench.

Jeff's recommendation of Cru Forge V is a good one, however it is no longer available (unless you want to forge some down) in the right size. Also, because of the vanadium primary carbide, a super fine keen edge is going to take work.

About the modern PM stainless steels, they will win out with overall wear resistance and probably all out edge retention. 1095 isn't going to keep up with S90V, but 1095 is WAY easier to touch up back to super sharp. Always a give/take.

For carbon steels in the kitchen, it's your call, I think they all perform pretty close to each other. Recommend W2, 52100, Blue and White (harder to source), 1095, A2 (a little harder to patina), and as Warren mentioned, 15n20 is pretty good too. O7 (1.2519) can be had from Germany, it is exceptional. For kitchen, 62HRC+.
 
first decide on blade thickness. O1 probably has the most thickness choices, easy to heat treat, performs well at Rc62-64. 1.2519 or O7 excels as a kitchen knife, wants to be ground thin with total edge angle <20 degrees, performs well at Rc63-65, easy heat treat, shipping from Germany is not that bad. samuraistuart and I have bought from these folks https://www.schmiedeglut.de/tungsten-steel-knifesteel_2. if you want a kitchen steel that will out perform most other steels out there, get some.
scott
 
Thanks guys. I guess it's time to look for a piece of 52100. Does anyone know of anywhere to get a 2.5" wide piece?
 
Stuart, As far as I know Cru Forge V was never available in anything other than 1.25 round bar or 1/4 x 1, 1.25 or 2 flat unless someone had rolled or hammered some down for sale. I bought about 300 pounds of the flat bar, mostly 1.25, when it first hit the market. In hindsight, I wish that I had also bought some of the round bar and a bitter of the 2 inch flat.
samuraistuart said:
As far as how thin the edge can be taken before HT, I have found this is very dependent upon not only the stock thickness (at the spine), but also how tall the blade is. But a general rule is not to go below 0.020". I use .020" myself. That is pretty much minimums, tho, as .015" will more than likely give you some degree of warp/bacon edge. .030" is fine. I don't see any need in going thicker than .030" at all, even with shallow hardening steels that need a fast quench.

Jeff's recommendation of Cru Forge V is a good one, however it is no longer available (unless you want to forge some down) in the right size. Also, because of the vanadium primary carbide, a super fine keen edge is going to take work.

About the modern PM stainless steels, they will win out with overall wear resistance and probably all out edge retention. 1095 isn't going to keep up with S90V, but 1095 is WAY easier to touch up back to super sharp. Always a give/take.

For carbon steels in the kitchen, it's your call, I think they all perform pretty close to each other. Recommend W2, 52100, Blue and White (harder to source), 1095, A2 (a little harder to patina), and as Warren mentioned, 15n20 is pretty good too. O7 (1.2519) can be had from Germany, it is exceptional. For kitchen, 62HRC+.
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Hey Jim, this comes up every now and again. Cru Forge V was rolled into bar form (not sure who did the rolling....Niagara maybe?) and I am almost positive it was Chuck with AKS that had some. I want to say it was also available in bar form from USA Knife. This was a few years ago. It was like .110" or thereabouts. I still remember the white sticker label on the bar...pretty sure it was from AKS. When Matthew Gregory and I were discussing it one day, he also was surprised to hear it was in bar form. We did some looking around, and he found a gentleman (I forget his name...I think first name Mike) who had quite a few sheets of it. We went in together and bought a sheet, he cut it and sent me half. Still have 90% of it. A real pleasure to hand sand....it's super easy to hand sand. :D
 
As of May2015 - Mike Turner still has a few full sheets (24"x36" 0.114" thick) of CFV avail for grab, http://turnerknives.com/. I prefer Cfv over Hitachi Blue in term of perf & ht-ability however both are prone to rust. IME - hardened Cfv will eats belt & sand paper at same rate of D2.
 
samuraistuart said:
Hey Jim, this comes up every now and again. Cru Forge V was rolled into bar form (not sure who did the rolling....Niagara maybe?) and I am almost positive it was Chuck with AKS that had some. I want to say it was also available in bar form from USA Knife. This was a few years ago. It was like .110" or thereabouts. I still remember the white sticker label on the bar...pretty sure it was from AKS. When Matthew Gregory and I were discussing it one day, he also was surprised to hear it was in bar form. We did some looking around, and he found a gentleman (I forget his name...I think first name Mike) who had quite a few sheets of it. We went in together and bought a sheet, he cut it and sent me half. Still have 90% of it. A real pleasure to hand sand....it's super easy to hand sand. :D
Click to expand...

Most definitely! It's like sanding a knife shaped diamond [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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I bought my 1/4 inch bar form Specialty Metals in Dallas. They were the "factory rep" for that project. Aldo was looking at one point to buy the last big slug of the stuff, which was supposedly like a couple of tons or so, but the story was that a company that makes hoof knives snapped it up. IIRC, the one smelt they did was like 20 tons. The biggest "hoard" of the stuff out there now is probably the DesRosier's secret stash. Adam told me a couple of years ago that the bought a couple of tons of the stuff and that it was very popular among the Alaskan hunters/guides. As for the hand sanding, Dan Farr told me that if you temper at 425 and take it down to 59Rc, It is not so bad and at that hardness, it is tough as nails and still holds an edge for a LONG time. i also heard that Adam DesRosier said that you don't really want to leave it much softer than that because it acts funny if you get it softer than 58-59. As for me, I leave it at 61Rc with the understanding that I am not going to have much luck with any finish finer than around 400 grit, at least not with sandpaper. I use EDM stones up to around 320 anyway.
samuraistuart said:
Hey Jim, this comes up every now and again. Cru Forge V was rolled into bar form (not sure who did the rolling....Niagara maybe?) and I am almost positive it was Chuck with AKS that had some. I want to say it was also available in bar form from USA Knife. This was a few years ago. It was like .110" or thereabouts. I still remember the white sticker label on the bar...pretty sure it was from AKS. When Matthew Gregory and I were discussing it one day, he also was surprised to hear it was in bar form. We did some looking around, and he found a gentleman (I forget his name...I think first name Mike) who had quite a few sheets of it. We went in together and bought a sheet, he cut it and sent me half. Still have 90% of it. A real pleasure to hand sand....it's super easy to hand sand. :D
Click to expand...
 
CFV will take a NASTY edge, but so will Blue's German cousin, 115W8!!!! The German stuff is not as hard to hand sand.
bluntcut said:
As of May2015 - Mike Turner still has a few full sheets (24"x36" 0.114" thick) of CFV avail for grab, http://turnerknives.com/. I prefer Cfv over Hitachi Blue in term of perf & ht-ability however both are prone to rust. IME - hardened Cfv will eats belt & sand paper at same rate of D2.
Click to expand...
 
I'm working with 115W8 right now, and at 63HRC it is no picnic either! I can't tell the difference working Blue 2, 1.2519, 115W8, and CFV.

Jim, that's exactly what I heard. Actually, I called Adam one day to talk about CFV and he mentioned about keeping it above 60, that lower hardness of 59 was "chippy" on his test choppers compared to higher hardness of 61+...I know...weird...backwards you'd think. I like to keep all my steels above 60 anyway. Yep, he mentioned the Alaska hunters love his CFV knives. I know why! He also mentioned if normalizing to start at 1750F, then cycle down as per usual. Mentioned he uses 1510F aus temp with a soak, I use 1490F. 425 at 59....seems off. I would have to go to 450+ to get that low. I quench in P50. No issues at all, yet. Recall you had one crack with P50, unless I'm mistaken.
 
it was a very thin petty blade that had already had the bevels ground in partly and I would use the term "exploded" as opposed to "cracked." :p
samuraistuart said:
I'm working with 115W8 right now, and at 63HRC it is no picnic either! I can't tell the difference working Blue 2, 1.2519, 115W8, and CFV.

Jim, that's exactly what I heard. Actually, I called Adam one day to talk about CFV and he mentioned about keeping it above 60, that lower hardness of 59 was "chippy" on his test choppers compared to higher hardness of 61+...I know...weird...backwards you'd think. I like to keep all my steels above 60 anyway. Yep, he mentioned the Alaska hunters love his CFV knives. I know why! He also mentioned if normalizing to start at 1750F, then cycle down as per usual. Mentioned he uses 1510F aus temp with a soak, I use 1490F. 425 at 59....seems off. I would have to go to 450+ to get that low. I quench in P50. No issues at all, yet. Recall you had one crack with P50, unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...
 
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