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- Thread starter Cory Hess
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Cory Hess
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Well, that's embarrassing. I did a google search for kc custom knives and a fella popped up with a Facebook page full of pictures of knives he was making. I apologize. I have searched Ken Coates and seen some of your stuff (assuming I didn't mess that up as well). I'm in awe. I don't know enough about knives yet to justify that kind of investment, but that being said I don't understand how you price your work like you do. You either work very quickly and get your materials at rock bottom prices or you are greatly underpriced. I know you're in line with some other makers I've seen, but I don't understand any of you do it. Kudos to you, sir. I'm shooting you a message now.
Cory Hess
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I just wanted to hop on and give a quick update since some of you had asked that I do that. I received the Rough Rider trapper and stockman that I ordered. The whittler is supposed to come in later this week. I have handled each knife for about 10 minutes and slipped each one into my fifth pocket to see how they feel. I wanted to post my first impressions while they're fresh in case another lost soul stumbles upon this thread and has the same questions I did. A lot of this is going to seem very obvious to you seasoned veterans, but they are things that I didn't know or consider when I started my hunt for my next knife. Here are my initial impressions:
The difference in width between the single blade lockback I'm used to and the two spring knives is really minimal. Holding them next to each other the dual springs seem to be about the width of a bolster wider. I was worried that a multi-blade knife would be uncomfortable in my pocket, but I really don't notice the difference at all. The move to 4"+ also wasn't really noticeable in my pocket. In my hand the difference was noticeable. The 4" knives feel like a full sized knife to me. All of my fingers fit comfortably on the handle. On my 3.5" knife my pinky kind of hangs off in limbo. On the smaller knife that pinky acts as a stop so that the knife can't slide down towards my wrist. With the 4" knives the handle goes all the way down to the fatter part of my palm under the pinky. I definitely prefer the longer knife.
I was worried about how wide, edge to spine, the clip blades were on the trappers and the GEC #82. This was a matter of lacking perspective of an item in a picture. The 3.5" clip blade on the trapper is just as wide as the 2.5" blade on my lockback, but the extra length gives it a different angle on the clipped portion, which made me think it was going to be a narrower blade.
The blades on the slip joints are much stiffer than the blade on the lockback. I was expecting them to be stiffer, but I definitely underestimated how substantial the difference would be. This will probably diminish somewhat once I've used them a bit, but for now they seem very stiff. I read through some threads about nail nick preferences and didn't really get why people would care. Now I understand. The middle blade on the stockman is especially challenging to open. Coming from a knife where I can grab the blade with two fingers and lift it just by rolling my fingers towards the handle, having a knife where I only have access to a little sliver of the blade and it's the stiffest of the blades is going to take some getting used to. I was a little worried about the blade not locking back, but with how stiff the springs are I don't foresee any trouble with the blades closing unexpectedly.
The trapper is just what I thought I'd be getting with a multi-blade knife. It's two full sized blades sandwiched into one knife. The stockman is one full sized blade, one 3/4 blade and one undersized blade that I'm going to have to be creative to find uses for. I understand now why people said that they didn't find the spey blades on stockmans very useful. My stockman is a little weird in that the spey blade is the primary, the clip is the secondary and the sheepsfoot is the tertiary. For reference, the knife is 4" long, the spey blade is about 2 3/4" long, the clip is about 2 1/4" and the sheepsfoot is about 1 1/2" long. For the trapper, the knife is 4 1/8" long and both blades are 3" long. I'm not including the tangs in any of these measurements, just the length of the cutting blade. I wasn't sure where the trade off was on getting the extra blade in a stockman in the same sized knife. Now it's obvious.
The trapper is in a smooth bone handle and the stockman is in a jigged bone. I expected the jigged bone to have a much grippier feel, like the stippling on the grip of my handguns. There isn't really much of a difference. It seems like the texture of the bone itself is what allows me to get a good grip on both handles. The jigged bone obviously feels different, but not more secure. Between the two I'd say my preference is going to come down to how a particular knife looks, as there's no real advantage to one over the other in function.
I'm no expert, as these are my first slipjoints and I haven't even used them yet. These are just my first impressions. I'm going to carry each knife for a couple of weeks and put them through their paces before I come to a conclusion and make my big GEC purchase. For now, I am leaning away from my initial choice and favoring the trapper.
Here's a picture of my newly founded collection:
The difference in width between the single blade lockback I'm used to and the two spring knives is really minimal. Holding them next to each other the dual springs seem to be about the width of a bolster wider. I was worried that a multi-blade knife would be uncomfortable in my pocket, but I really don't notice the difference at all. The move to 4"+ also wasn't really noticeable in my pocket. In my hand the difference was noticeable. The 4" knives feel like a full sized knife to me. All of my fingers fit comfortably on the handle. On my 3.5" knife my pinky kind of hangs off in limbo. On the smaller knife that pinky acts as a stop so that the knife can't slide down towards my wrist. With the 4" knives the handle goes all the way down to the fatter part of my palm under the pinky. I definitely prefer the longer knife.
I was worried about how wide, edge to spine, the clip blades were on the trappers and the GEC #82. This was a matter of lacking perspective of an item in a picture. The 3.5" clip blade on the trapper is just as wide as the 2.5" blade on my lockback, but the extra length gives it a different angle on the clipped portion, which made me think it was going to be a narrower blade.
The blades on the slip joints are much stiffer than the blade on the lockback. I was expecting them to be stiffer, but I definitely underestimated how substantial the difference would be. This will probably diminish somewhat once I've used them a bit, but for now they seem very stiff. I read through some threads about nail nick preferences and didn't really get why people would care. Now I understand. The middle blade on the stockman is especially challenging to open. Coming from a knife where I can grab the blade with two fingers and lift it just by rolling my fingers towards the handle, having a knife where I only have access to a little sliver of the blade and it's the stiffest of the blades is going to take some getting used to. I was a little worried about the blade not locking back, but with how stiff the springs are I don't foresee any trouble with the blades closing unexpectedly.
The trapper is just what I thought I'd be getting with a multi-blade knife. It's two full sized blades sandwiched into one knife. The stockman is one full sized blade, one 3/4 blade and one undersized blade that I'm going to have to be creative to find uses for. I understand now why people said that they didn't find the spey blades on stockmans very useful. My stockman is a little weird in that the spey blade is the primary, the clip is the secondary and the sheepsfoot is the tertiary. For reference, the knife is 4" long, the spey blade is about 2 3/4" long, the clip is about 2 1/4" and the sheepsfoot is about 1 1/2" long. For the trapper, the knife is 4 1/8" long and both blades are 3" long. I'm not including the tangs in any of these measurements, just the length of the cutting blade. I wasn't sure where the trade off was on getting the extra blade in a stockman in the same sized knife. Now it's obvious.
The trapper is in a smooth bone handle and the stockman is in a jigged bone. I expected the jigged bone to have a much grippier feel, like the stippling on the grip of my handguns. There isn't really much of a difference. It seems like the texture of the bone itself is what allows me to get a good grip on both handles. The jigged bone obviously feels different, but not more secure. Between the two I'd say my preference is going to come down to how a particular knife looks, as there's no real advantage to one over the other in function.
I'm no expert, as these are my first slipjoints and I haven't even used them yet. These are just my first impressions. I'm going to carry each knife for a couple of weeks and put them through their paces before I come to a conclusion and make my big GEC purchase. For now, I am leaning away from my initial choice and favoring the trapper.
Here's a picture of my newly founded collection:
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A lot of jigged bone is polished and smoothed to where the jigging doesn't add much (some, but not much) in the way of added grippiness. I think it is more for the looks and for the tactile interest. Some jigging patterns do actually add to the grippiness, though, so it depends on the knife.
I don't have any experience with Rough Rider knives myself. I'm kind of surprised the springs are that stiff, though. You might want to try a warm soapy water flushing of the joints followed up by drying, WD-40 to get the residual water out, and then maybe a drop of light oil on the joints.
You may have to wrap the blades in tape for safety, but you just use a bowl or sink with hot water and a degreasing liquid soap like Dawn, and fully submerge the knife and work the blades back and forth and swish them around. You are trying to rinse out any residual gunk or metal filing left behind by the factory sharpening process.
I don't have any experience with Rough Rider knives myself. I'm kind of surprised the springs are that stiff, though. You might want to try a warm soapy water flushing of the joints followed up by drying, WD-40 to get the residual water out, and then maybe a drop of light oil on the joints.
You may have to wrap the blades in tape for safety, but you just use a bowl or sink with hot water and a degreasing liquid soap like Dawn, and fully submerge the knife and work the blades back and forth and swish them around. You are trying to rinse out any residual gunk or metal filing left behind by the factory sharpening process.
+1
A long-bristle dish scrubber will reach down into the "blade well" and help clear out any particles in there. Canned air will blow out the last of the water. Let the knife dry overnight before oiling.
Rough Rider knives vary somewhat in the spring tension — some are tighter than others in my experience.
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I am glad that you chose to post your initial impressions. Looks like your preferences are working toward a fine choice. How are the fit and finish? We're the knives suitably sharp? Please keep us posted as you put them through their paces.
Chris
Chris
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This is a fine example of try before you buy. Cory, I'm happy you noted the difference in feel between the stockman and trapper. Now at least you'll have a pretty good idea before committing to a higher-priced knife. Then again, you might be surprised at how serviceable those Rough Riders are. Good luck with your purchase!
Cory Hess
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I will give both knives a quick cleaning before bed and then oil them up in the morning. As I'm looking inside the knives and around the joints I can see where they're dirty. The pull isn't too bad, just a lot different than my loose old Winchester.
As far as fit and finish, they both seem pretty good. The scales aren't quite flush with the bolsters and I can feel the edge where the scale sits a bit higher as I run my finger from the bolster to the scale. It's a small enough difference that I can't see it, but I can feel it. I can see daylight on one of the springs on each knife. The stockman has two pins that sit visibly higher than the scales, both on the side with the shield. The main blade on the stockman is off center towards the scale, but isn't rubbing. The two smaller blades have some rubbing against each other and both blades are already scratched. The blades on the trapper are centered nicely. None of this is concerning to me, and I don't expect it to hamper the operation of the knives. I'm nitpicking for the sake of this forum. If I bought a $150 knife and it had these problems I'd be upset. For $27 for 3 knives I'm really impressed that they did as good of a job as they did. The blades are sharp enough to cut paper, but not sharp enough to shave.
As far as fit and finish, they both seem pretty good. The scales aren't quite flush with the bolsters and I can feel the edge where the scale sits a bit higher as I run my finger from the bolster to the scale. It's a small enough difference that I can't see it, but I can feel it. I can see daylight on one of the springs on each knife. The stockman has two pins that sit visibly higher than the scales, both on the side with the shield. The main blade on the stockman is off center towards the scale, but isn't rubbing. The two smaller blades have some rubbing against each other and both blades are already scratched. The blades on the trapper are centered nicely. None of this is concerning to me, and I don't expect it to hamper the operation of the knives. I'm nitpicking for the sake of this forum. If I bought a $150 knife and it had these problems I'd be upset. For $27 for 3 knives I'm really impressed that they did as good of a job as they did. The blades are sharp enough to cut paper, but not sharp enough to shave.
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Most lockbacks are very easily opened and closed. The springs on a non-locker have the job of opening and closing the knife. Some lockers only have a bit of friction and a detent to hold them closed, nothing to assist them or even slow down their opening. I have seen many an old Buck 110 that you could literally hold the knife parallel to the ground blade down, and the knife would open. Too many to count...
First of all, what an unusual arrangement on that stockman. For a true ranch hand that used that knife as designed or for a hunter that did some light skinning or fish cleaning, that knife would be the stuff.
Sounds like the RRs are doing their job. It gives you something to hold in your hand, something to look at, and something to help manage your expectations. Don't think that buying a $125 knife will get you perfection. There are plenty of threads here about how disappointed folks are with their high dollar purchases, followed immediately by those that champion that brand or another, warts and all.
If you have a monthly, quarterly gun show, they may have some knife vendors there you can talk to and look through their wares. You will see plenty of $125 fingernail breakers, knives with cracked scales, proud pins, lazy blades, deeply sunken pins, off center blades, bad bevels, poor sharpening, mismatched scale material, poor finishing, blade rubs, and any combination of the above.
The knives you bought are plenty serviceable. I have found that knives change in my pocket from using them for a few months. They become much easier to open and close, I have seen spring/liner gaps close up some, and the colors change on the scales. Once you get the knife sharpened to your spec, you find out as well just how useful (or not so much so!) that pattern will be to you. All part of the process.
I think if I was in your shoes I might buy a couple of more interesting patterns from the RR guys and wag them around for a week or so per pattern using them as much as possible before I went forward. And most definitely, I would go to a gun/knife show to ogle all things bladed on the traditional tables, used and new.
My friend, you are truly at the fun part of the trip. Enjoy!
Thanks for the update.
Robert
I use a 4 inch trapper for similar tasks to you, & am happy. The spey blade is ideal for food, & the clip for all else.
I avoid 1095 because I don't like the taste it creates with fruit. Some people aren't bothered, some are. This is probably the only aspect of the choice you haven't tested yet.
I avoid 1095 because I don't like the taste it creates with fruit. Some people aren't bothered, some are. This is probably the only aspect of the choice you haven't tested yet.
Cory Hess
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So, I washed with soap and water last night. There was a lot of crud coming out, especially on the stockman. I used the air compressor to blow them dry and left them open overnight. This morning I hosed down the joints with some gun oil, worked each blade 5 or 6 times, and let them sit on a paper towel for 20 minutes or so. There was quite a bit of gunk on the paper towel, especially under the stockman, when I came back. The pull on the stockman is much lighter now. Both knives loosened up some, but the stockman is about half of what it was yesterday. I still have to get my nail in the nick, but I don't get the sensation of my nail lifting off of my finger as I pull. I am very happy with how both knives feel at this point.
Robert, if you have some other patterns to suggest I'll gladly try them out. I'd like to find one with a wharncliffe and a spey blade, but I have not yet seen those two blades together. I'll be busy for the next 6 weeks or so with the two I just got and the one that's in route, so I'm sure a gun show will pop up between now and the time I'm ready to move up. I've always walked past the knife booths, but I guess I'll have to pay some attention to them next time out.
Robert, if you have some other patterns to suggest I'll gladly try them out. I'd like to find one with a wharncliffe and a spey blade, but I have not yet seen those two blades together. I'll be busy for the next 6 weeks or so with the two I just got and the one that's in route, so I'm sure a gun show will pop up between now and the time I'm ready to move up. I've always walked past the knife booths, but I guess I'll have to pay some attention to them next time out.
Cory Hess
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So, after my searching and hemming and hawing I came to a conclusion on my big knife purchase.
First, I should start with my Rough Rider Whittler that came in. It came in in pretty rough shape. The scales on this knife are glued on instead of being pinned and one of the scales was laying loose in the box. Since it was a $7 purchase and nothing I'm too worried about I just super glued the scale back on and all is well. The bigger problem was that the blades were so stiff that I could barely open them. One of the secondaries were bad enough that I was only able to successfully open it once without jamming a screwdriver into the nail nick. I came across the thread here and was able to use the information to lighten the pull pretty considerably. After that the knife was good enough to carry around for a couple days. I just found that I didn't particularly care for the layout of the blades. The main is a wide spear blade and the two small ones are a spear and a sheepsfoot. The main proved very useful as did the sheepsfoot, but I haven't found a single use for the smaller spear blade.
I found that having all three knives laying out I most often reached for the stockman. I love the layout of this knife. The spey blade is large enough to properly slice an apple and butter bread, the clip is a nice size for general cutting, and the sheepsfoot is a good size and shape for opening packages and doing random self grooming like cutting on my nails. The problem is that I can't for the life of me find an American made stockman with this blade layout.
So, I'm going with a trapper. I know that I said that I was going to spend a week with each knife, but with not being able to find a stockman that's laid out like I want and not being able to find a whittler that's as large as I want the trapper is the only one that hits all of my "needs". I wanted something that had at least 3" blades because I found that to be the size that allowed me to slice through apples and mangoes, our household's two favorite fruits, the easiest. After looking around I zeroed in on the Queen #19 and the GEC #23. I have read some mixed reviews about Queen, so I decided to go with the GEC. I shot an email out to an online dealer asking about a Tidioute #23 with pioneer bone scales he had for sale. After some back and forth he convinced me that the #23 might be a bit big for everyday carry and that the blades had a pretty heavy pull. He told me that the #73 had blades that were just a hair over 3". So, I ordered up a Tidioute #73 with jigged pioneer bone scales.
Well, today my knife came in the mail. Imagine my surprise when I opened the tube and out slid the #23! I played with it for a couple of minutes before messaging the dealer to tell him about the mix up. I really like the #23. It's definitely on the top of the scale of what I'd find carryable, and the blades definitely have a heavy pull but they're no heavier than the whittler I wrote about a couple minutes ago. I had carried that around no problem, so I figured I'd be able to use the #23. Well, I emailed the vendor and told him about the mix up and let him know that I'd like to keep the #23 and I'd just pay him the difference in price. He said that he's going to send me the #73 with a prepaid return envelope for the #23 so that I can handle the two knives side by side and just send back whichever one I didn't want to keep. I am blown away by this service, especially considering I had already said that I would be more than happy to keep the #23. I don't want to say who the vendor is because they're not a BF paid dealer and I know that's taboo. I will say that I looked at every single BF dealer and only found one that had a knife I liked as much as the one I ordered. I emailed them first, but never heard a response so I had to go off the farm with my order.
The #23 is safely packed in it's tube until I get the #73, but I did take the opportunity to snap a quick picture of it next to my old Winchester. The 23 is just about perfect. The only thing I noticed was that it has 3 pins that are sunk down below the scales and one that's a bit high. This would bother me on most knives, but with the pioneer bone scales I think that these imperfections just add to the rustic feel of the knife. If I like the 73 near as much as the 23 I might just be sending out more money and keeping both knives. I'd just have to figure out how to explain that to the significant other. I know that the next couple of days are going to be tough, knowing that the 23 is sitting in that tube and not being able to play with it.
First, I should start with my Rough Rider Whittler that came in. It came in in pretty rough shape. The scales on this knife are glued on instead of being pinned and one of the scales was laying loose in the box. Since it was a $7 purchase and nothing I'm too worried about I just super glued the scale back on and all is well. The bigger problem was that the blades were so stiff that I could barely open them. One of the secondaries were bad enough that I was only able to successfully open it once without jamming a screwdriver into the nail nick. I came across the thread here and was able to use the information to lighten the pull pretty considerably. After that the knife was good enough to carry around for a couple days. I just found that I didn't particularly care for the layout of the blades. The main is a wide spear blade and the two small ones are a spear and a sheepsfoot. The main proved very useful as did the sheepsfoot, but I haven't found a single use for the smaller spear blade.
I found that having all three knives laying out I most often reached for the stockman. I love the layout of this knife. The spey blade is large enough to properly slice an apple and butter bread, the clip is a nice size for general cutting, and the sheepsfoot is a good size and shape for opening packages and doing random self grooming like cutting on my nails. The problem is that I can't for the life of me find an American made stockman with this blade layout.
So, I'm going with a trapper. I know that I said that I was going to spend a week with each knife, but with not being able to find a stockman that's laid out like I want and not being able to find a whittler that's as large as I want the trapper is the only one that hits all of my "needs". I wanted something that had at least 3" blades because I found that to be the size that allowed me to slice through apples and mangoes, our household's two favorite fruits, the easiest. After looking around I zeroed in on the Queen #19 and the GEC #23. I have read some mixed reviews about Queen, so I decided to go with the GEC. I shot an email out to an online dealer asking about a Tidioute #23 with pioneer bone scales he had for sale. After some back and forth he convinced me that the #23 might be a bit big for everyday carry and that the blades had a pretty heavy pull. He told me that the #73 had blades that were just a hair over 3". So, I ordered up a Tidioute #73 with jigged pioneer bone scales.
Well, today my knife came in the mail. Imagine my surprise when I opened the tube and out slid the #23! I played with it for a couple of minutes before messaging the dealer to tell him about the mix up. I really like the #23. It's definitely on the top of the scale of what I'd find carryable, and the blades definitely have a heavy pull but they're no heavier than the whittler I wrote about a couple minutes ago. I had carried that around no problem, so I figured I'd be able to use the #23. Well, I emailed the vendor and told him about the mix up and let him know that I'd like to keep the #23 and I'd just pay him the difference in price. He said that he's going to send me the #73 with a prepaid return envelope for the #23 so that I can handle the two knives side by side and just send back whichever one I didn't want to keep. I am blown away by this service, especially considering I had already said that I would be more than happy to keep the #23. I don't want to say who the vendor is because they're not a BF paid dealer and I know that's taboo. I will say that I looked at every single BF dealer and only found one that had a knife I liked as much as the one I ordered. I emailed them first, but never heard a response so I had to go off the farm with my order.
The #23 is safely packed in it's tube until I get the #73, but I did take the opportunity to snap a quick picture of it next to my old Winchester. The 23 is just about perfect. The only thing I noticed was that it has 3 pins that are sunk down below the scales and one that's a bit high. This would bother me on most knives, but with the pioneer bone scales I think that these imperfections just add to the rustic feel of the knife. If I like the 73 near as much as the 23 I might just be sending out more money and keeping both knives. I'd just have to figure out how to explain that to the significant other. I know that the next couple of days are going to be tough, knowing that the 23 is sitting in that tube and not being able to play with it.
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That #23 is one big honking knife all right, but it sure is a beauty!
The experience you mentioned with blades on your stockman not being centered and some blade rub - that is pretty much the nature of the beast with a 3-blade pattern unless you have one with a separate spring per blade, or else they do some very careful swedging of each blade. Normally, the blades are crinked (bent just past the tang) so that the opposite end blades miss each other when closing.
The blade rub is somewhat inevitable since you tend to push the blades into each other when using a nail nick to open them.
Anyhow, hope you can decide on a favorite between the two and get a knife you like. Or, you can do it the Bladeforums way - and buy both!
The experience you mentioned with blades on your stockman not being centered and some blade rub - that is pretty much the nature of the beast with a 3-blade pattern unless you have one with a separate spring per blade, or else they do some very careful swedging of each blade. Normally, the blades are crinked (bent just past the tang) so that the opposite end blades miss each other when closing.
The blade rub is somewhat inevitable since you tend to push the blades into each other when using a nail nick to open them.
Anyhow, hope you can decide on a favorite between the two and get a knife you like. Or, you can do it the Bladeforums way - and buy both!
Cory Hess
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I kind of figured this. After looking at the stockman for a couple days and trying to figure out how the blade rub would be fixed I figured that it would take a pretty precise process to come up with a way to jam all those blades in there and not have any of them touching.
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Woohoo........that's a slippery slope you're on Cory! You know what's gonna happen if you send either one back right? Yep...you won't be able to get it out of your head. What if........Should I have......Better to keep both and save yourself the headache
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I am really enjoying this thread. Cory, I appreciate you taking the time to post your findings and the process. Most, if not all, here have gone through some changes I preferences in knives. Being able to see you going through the process is nostalgic. The 23 is a beauty, I would have a hard time parting with it. One the other hand I love the 73. The feel and size of the 73 really appeals to me, my son has one that I have used some. Sounds like you may have some explaining to do soon.
Chris
Chris
I am all about what have been described as "high value" knives, the best examples of which would prob be an Opinel folder or a Mora fixed blade (among other low priced options- I am also really into my Svord Peasant).
Buying high value (read-inexpensive but great for the price) allows me to painlessly diversify my blade portfolio, decide what I love, and then refine what direction I want to go in when I am ready based on the experience I gained (personal experience/preference is a theme that tends to run through most advice-type posts on here). It expands your own knowledge of what you like/what works for you, but without spending $75-$100 a pop. This is basically what you have done with that Winchester. So def snag a GEC, but don't hesitate to accumulate a small cache of the $20 variety out there. These cheapies also help you really put into perspective and appreciate the value of a well-made tool.
Of course, this is all relative. For some budgets, that GEC blade IS the cheap-o tool to learn on, so to speak... lol
Buying high value (read-inexpensive but great for the price) allows me to painlessly diversify my blade portfolio, decide what I love, and then refine what direction I want to go in when I am ready based on the experience I gained (personal experience/preference is a theme that tends to run through most advice-type posts on here). It expands your own knowledge of what you like/what works for you, but without spending $75-$100 a pop. This is basically what you have done with that Winchester. So def snag a GEC, but don't hesitate to accumulate a small cache of the $20 variety out there. These cheapies also help you really put into perspective and appreciate the value of a well-made tool.
Of course, this is all relative. For some budgets, that GEC blade IS the cheap-o tool to learn on, so to speak... lol
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OOPS- this is what I get for not reading the thread more carefully- looks like I am def late to the party lol