Looking for ZDP189

[Larrin]

ZDP189 beat hands free all those "balanced" steel. He may be less tough then INFI or A2 but it is tougher then CPM 154 and CPM S30V and much better in edge holding. Unles you need machete or big chopper - ZDP 189 is pretty tough. I am using it on full tasks from whittling aluminum to cutting computer paper and it is second after Dozier's D2 performer so far. I see no weakness in terms of toughness, but of course it is less tough then INFI, but INFI does not stay sharp for long and I do not do too much chopping to put it over edge holding.

Thanks, Vassili.

While your tests are informative they are tests of knives not steels. If the knives had the same edge geometry and I was sure they had optimal heat treatments then a conclusion about steels could be formed. Only very general conclusions can be formed without testing the same knife with different steels.

 

[nozh2002]

While your tests are informative they are tests of knives not steels. If the knives had the same edge geometry and I was sure they had optimal heat treatments then a conclusion about steels could be formed. Only very general conclusions can be formed without testing the same knife with different steels.

Not at all edge holding does not depnd on knife shape and size. How it will be different for 7" or 3"? Nonsense! If you think about this and actually read what I did, we can discuss this.

Of course we can make conclusion about steel without making same knives.

I can only point out that my words are back up by tests, while you has no proves. When you have your test results then you may say is it tougher or not, but you do not have any tests. Until then all what you say is just words, which any one can came up with.

My tests, if you pay attention, developed to eliminate all factors but steel and heat treatment. Reject them just because they show different results then whatever you came up with looks silly. You may reject them only if you have other tests supporting your words.

Once again ZDP 189 best stainless for knives on the market and all available tests proves this. Everything else just speculation without any test results to back them up.

American version of RWL34 - CPM 154 good, but not too close even with Paul Bos HT.

I wish Crucible will came up with something as good as ZDP189, but so far they produce highly abrasive resistant steels, not high edge holding, so Japanese step ahead so far.

Of course best is Dozier with his D2.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Larrin]

I'm sorry, but your tests do not eliminate all factors but steel and heat treatment.

 

[nozh2002]

I'm sorry, but your tests do not eliminate all factors but steel and heat treatment.

I am sorry, but this is bold statement same as you statement about steel property - it is not based on any test results. It is not working this way if you want to make point - prove it, do something as I did. Otherwise all what you saying is just words.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[roughedges]

I am sorry, but this is bold statement same as you statement about steel property - it is not based on any test results. It is not working this way if you want to make point - prove it, do something as I did. Otherwise all what you saying is just words.

Thanks, Vassili.

What he is saying is the same thing I tried to tell you over a year ago. If you don't eliminate every variable (variable in this case equaling any difference other than type of steel) then you are testing the knives themselves and not the steel they are actually made in. As such, it would be poor science, and presumptious, to make anything but the most general conclusions regarding steel type based on tests of specific knives in whatever type of steel they happen to be made of.


An example: test the Spyderco Mule knives in each type of steel that they are produced in. As all other variables are the same, this is the sort of test that isolates the one that you wish to test, ie, the steel.

 

[nozh2002]

What he is saying is the same thing I tried to tell you over a year ago. If you don't eliminate every variable (variable in this case equaling any difference other than type of steel) then you are testing the knives themselves and not the steel they are actually made in. As such, it would be poor science, and presumptious, to make anything but the most general conclusions regarding steel type based on tests of specific knives in whatever type of steel they happen to be made of.


An example: test the Spyderco Mule knives in each type of steel that they are produced in. As all other variables are the same, this is the sort of test that isolates the one that you wish to test, ie, the steel.

The problem is that you are saying but not listening. I gave tons of explanation over this year and do not see what else I can do if you just ignore my explanation?

I did eliminates all factors and explained it. I can understand some may have opinion and do not like to discuss it for one or other reason - but this is bad science, not my effort to test. Ignorance is not science - it is simple ignorance. I should add to this also - lazyness, so far nobody did anything by hand, just talk. Sorry.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Larrin]

Two easy examples for why other variables aren't eliminated because the test has changed as your sharpening and cutting skills have improved. Another easy example is that your testing seems to be favoring knives with thicker edge geometry. Regardless, we're off topic.

 

[roughedges]

I did eliminates all factors and explained it. I can understand some may have opinion and do not like to discuss it for one or other reason - but this is bad science, not my effort to test. Ignorance is not science - it is simple ignorance. I should add to this also - lazyness, so far nobody did anything by hand, just talk. Sorry.

You're right. I was not aware that you'd eliminated all factors. Are you making and testing your own knives then? Or have you commissioned a custom maker to make you identical knives in different types of steel? Simply changing the edges to uniform is not enough to eliminate all factors.

Regarding laziness, I have no desire to test my knives other than by real world application. Additionally, I have no intent of disparaging the work that you have done. However, neither claims of ignorance nor my motives negate the long realized fact that, when testing anything, it is first necessary to identify and control each and every possible extraneous variable. To do less than that, since it is based upon possibly faulty data, must call into question the legitimacy of any conclusion arrived at through evaluation of said data.

As for ignorance, I could not agree more Vasilli.
__________

My apologies folks, for my part in leading this thread further off topic. We now return you to your regular scheduled programming.

 

[nozh2002]

I am not interested in pointless arguing, sorry. When you have something real to discuss tests done by yourself or when you read my explanation on how I eliminates different factors - then we may talk, so far I do not see anything like this.

So far there is not other test results and this mean that all other is just an "opinions" not supported by real tests results.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[riffraff]

So far there is not other test results and this mean that all other is just an "opinions" not supported by real tests results.

Actually, your statement that you have eliminated all variables except steel and heat treatment is an opinion, in and of itself.

Thanks, Vassili.

You're welcome.

 

[nozh2002]

Actually, your statement that you have eliminated all variables except steel and heat treatment is an opinion, in and of itself.

You're welcome.

As I sad before I am not interested in pointless arguing. When you have something real other then playing words - then we may talk. Now it may be opinion but I explain what how and why many times and I ready to discuss this to make it better, but if I hear from other side just same bold statements and no interest in discussion - what can I do. I am waiting to see something different then just same requirement again and again. Requirement which actually making any test impossible and left us just humble accept whatever manufacturers please us to tell.

Not for me sorry. I do not trust marketing, suspecting that they just trying to sell their goods.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[hardheart]

what tests have you performed to say that ZDP-189 is tougher than CPM154 or S30V, and has less toughness than INFI?

 

[nozh2002]

what tests have you performed to say that ZDP-189 is tougher than CPM154 or S30V, and has less toughness than INFI?

I tested edge holding only. It is all in my post - I sad I used ZDP189 for many tasks and it did not show ant brittleness, it acts tougher then CPM 154 and S30V, but this is not a test, just feeling.

My reply was to this, statement, which is not really related to ZDP toughness but dismisses any tests in general:

While your tests are informative they are tests of knives not steels. If the knives had the same edge geometry and I was sure they had optimal heat treatments then a conclusion about steels could be formed. Only very general conclusions can be formed without testing the same knife with different steels.

Sorry for confusion.

Thanks, Vassili.