Looking to buy a new pistol

A 7 shot 686 in 2 1/2 inch weighs 35 ozs, a Glock 19C loaded weighs 31 ozs, not a big difference at all. As far as bulk they are very similar in length and height, I carry an 2 1/2 N-Frame daily, it is neither to heavy or too bulky. The K-frame is available as well, lighter and slimmer yet. If concealment is still a concern the look to a J-Frame tho I regard them to be a BUG.

Revolvers have several advantages as pointed out by others, they are they best firearms for those who do not wish to learn and continuously practice the immediate action drills.

I think if I was going to carry a handgun that weighed in the area of 35 ozs, but carried twice the capacity of a revolver, it would be an easy choice for me.....

As a firearms instructor, I detect no advantage in ease of use for a revolver over a semi-auto. They are apples and oranges, with positive and negative points. For safe usage, familiarity is the key, not action type.

Ease of shooting, however, my nod goes to the auto, not the revolver.

If I had a dollar for every time somebody recommended a revolver to a noob, I could buy a used but not abused K frame. I don't agree with the advice, for many reasons.

Andy
 
Vantilberg, as stated, I would say the .40 gives more "snap" in the action with marginal performance effect. Purely anecdotal, but I've worked numerous shootings and caliber was a distant second to placement in all events (LE vis-a-vis hoodrats.) 9mm is easily controllable with lots on board. .45 is a minimal step up in recoil with +P loads. Based on my experiences, I'm very comfortable with 9mm & good HPs. My daughter (17yo & 113#) handles 9mm with ease.

Wouldn't hurt to check in on www.getoffthex.com and www.totalprotectioninteractive.com ;)
 
I'm looking into buying a new pistol. I just turned in my permit to purchase paperwork today for good 'ol NC. I was looking into a Kimber .45, but now I'm thinking maybe something else, something that I can teach my girlfriend to shoot with. Maybe a .40? She's a tiny girl, and I'm not too familiar with anything other than revolvers. Any suggestions on a nice semi auto? Thanks!

Do you have any experience with handguns? What other handguns do you own?

I think the advice to look for something you can switch to .22 is good advice. I know that there are .22 conversion uppers available for many Glock models which are high quality.

I haven't priced them recently, but I believe that the Advantage Arms kits and the Ciener kits run in the $250-$350 range. They fit on your Glock frame and allow you to shoot .22 from the same platform. With ammo prices going through the roof, this is a very good option for training purposes to allow a shooter to get to know the feel, trigger and sight picture of a particular handgun without breaking the bank.

If you think the conversion kit is expensive, you will quickly learn that the savings of shooting .22 over the centerfire ammo will soon pay for the kit.

Andy
 
Some would argue that a fully loaded G-19, weighing only 88% of the L-frame is a significant decrease in weight. Except that you listed the EMPTY weight of the L-frame, but at least you rounded up. Smith & Wesson lists the weight of the 7 shot @ 34.5 oz. Add 7 Corbon 125 grain JHP's, the weight becomes 37.78 oz. Let's round that up to 38 oz, as a heavier bullet would easily exceed that. NOW the loaded G-19 is 81.5% the weight, nearly 20% less. But Glock cites the loaded weight is 29.98 oz. Rounding up to 30 oz, it now becomes 78.9% as heavy. Many folks would view that difference as significant. And besides, flat guns carry easier than round guns, as a general rule.



The cylinder thickness of the L-frame is 1.564" compared to 1.18 for the Glock, just shy of 1/4" difference in thickness. Again, many folks would consider this as significant.



They do have advantages, but they also have disadvantages that have been overlooked. As I previously stated, the recommended L-frames only hold 6-7 rounds, so right away there is the capacity disadvantage. These rounds have a long, hard, often gritty trigger pull standing in the way of even modest accuracy. While the trigger pull can be lightened and smoothed, it's still a long hard pull, especially compared to a tuned (or untuned) Glock trigger. And after your 7th shot, you're reloading......providing you brought a speedloader. Meanwhile, the Glock shooter is firing shots 8 thru 16 if necessary. Even a 7 shot revolver must reload TWICE to get 16 shots fired. (providing you brought TWO speedloaders!)

Some other disadvantages are weight, trigger reach, recoil (with full power loads) and muzzle blast.

The OP asked for a semi-auto. Throwing the untrained inexperienced girlfriend into the mix is really a red herring. She needs to start with a different gun, or as suggested, a .22 conversion kit on the semi-auto.

If the person will not practice shooting or drills, then honestly, ANY gun would be a poor defense choice.

Why do flat guns carry easier? They both require a holster, they both have to be concealed in some manner, so what is the difference. I carry two revolvers on my belt daily and there isn't any way I can see that a flatter gun would be easier. And yes I carry a third in deep concealment and 2 reloads for each. I am a pessimist...lol.

Capacity isn't the issue so many make it out to be for a civilian. If you are so inept that 6-7 round rounds won't solve the problem then having 3 times that amount likely won't either. It is a proven fact that when equipped with a higher capacity firearm there are more misses per firefight than with a revolver. (look up what happened when NYC switched). Police often become involved in gunfights at much longer ranges than what a civilian does. Average for civilian is 10 feet or so, 3-4 rounds fired, over in under 4 seconds.

Trigger reach can be changed by simply changing from an L-Frame to a K-Frame or changing grips. If the hand is so small that is still a problem it will be a problem with most semi-auto's as well. Add to that the fact that someone with such small hands may have trouble limpwristing the handgun which will cause a jam in the SA that it will not cause in the revolver. Recoil can be addressed with a simple ammo change such as going to a 38 SD load.

As far as practice, shooting is a perishable skill as are reactions to malfunctions. Immediate action drill for a semi-auto must be practiced as much a shooting to maintain muscle memory to react to a failure to feed or failure to extract, etc. With a revolver there are no malfunction drills needed, if it doesn't go bang do to a bad round you pull the trigger again. And any problem that will put a revolver out of action will also put a SA out as well so claiming something like squib rounds is a moot point. The point is if your time is limited for practice then you are better off learning to hit what you are aiming at then splitting the time between target practice and malfunction drills.

There is also one factor I hadn't mentioned before. Massad Ayoob and other have talked to criminals who have attacked people. the majority admitted to them a revolver has a higher intimidation factor than a SA because they could see what was going to hurt them and they left the area quickly. Police officers have reported the same thing, they couldn't really describe the BG but they could tell you what kind of bullets were in the revolver. The best ending to a gunfight is for there not to be one at all.

I will point out in my initial post I did suggest a 9mm as well.

I think if I was going to carry a handgun that weighed in the area of 35 ozs, but carried twice the capacity of a revolver, it would be an easy choice for me.....

As a firearms instructor, I detect no advantage in ease of use for a revolver over a semi-auto. They are apples and oranges, with positive and negative points. For safe usage, familiarity is the key, not action type.

Ease of shooting, however, my nod goes to the auto, not the revolver.

If I had a dollar for every time somebody recommended a revolver to a noob, I could buy a used but not abused K frame. I don't agree with the advice, for many reasons.

Andy

See above for my arguments for the revolver...I give reasons...not just say I have them. I too am an instructor and I will go ahead and post my basics...

I am a NRA certified Law Enforcement Instructor in Rifle, Pistol, and Shotgun. I am a NRA certified Instructor in Certified Pistol, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer. I am also a school trained H&K Armorer for rifle, pistol, shotgun, and submachinegun. In addition I owned my own gunshop with ClassIII for over 20 years. I am a graduate of schools ranging from Ayoob's LFI classes to several of Farnham's, as well as a handful of other instructors. I have been competing for many years with my best accomplishments including winning the Midwest Regional in NRA Action Pistol, The ISRPA Indiana Skeet Championship, the Midwest GSSF Glock Regional, and several State Action Pistol Championships. I also won the Original Jungle Lane Full Auto shoot three times as well as some other various full auto and suppressed matches. I am an NRA High Master.

I am mostly retired these days, I still teach firearms but I do it pro bono. I don't compete nearly as much as I did before the degenerative disc disease destroyed a good portion of my lower back. I simply cannot shoot 200 rounds of 12 gauge needed for trap for instance.I still shoot a good bit but not the 50,000 thousand rounds a year I shot when I was actively competing on the national level.

My proudest accomplishment is still my service to my country as a 19D.
 
I use to love 45 acp pistols but due to the weight of them and the lower number of ammo carried. I now prefer a nice 9mm. What I like about 9mm is that you have a lot of options on defensive ammo such as +P+ which can have more energy than most 45acp ammo. A majority of 9mm will carry 15 + rounds in 1 mag. I have had several expensive 1911's and for the money an FNH FNP-9 is AWESOME very accurate and it has a lite short trigger like a 1911 it also has a decocker and comes with three 16+1 mags you will love it check them out.
 
Hey Guys, GUYS!

You are BOTH professionals in your fields, which means you both have knowledge far above the "average" shooter. Andy, I've known you for years, and Absintheur, that's clearly evident from your posts.

I think we can all agree that whatever type of handgun is purchased, revolver OR semiauto, it should be from a high quality manufacturer, right?

For the original poster and his girlfriend, the old "revolver vs semiauto" arguement just confuses the issue.

Andy - I'm sure you would much rather see the lady armed with a good .38 S&W revolver than a POS High Point, right?

Absintheur, I'm sure you would much rather see the lady armed with a 9mm Glock than a POS RG, right?

Armed with any good handgun is better than nothing. Ultimately it come down to what SHE feels the most comfortable with. :)

TR Graham
The Glocksmith
 
Hey Guys, GUYS!

You are BOTH professionals in your fields, which means you both have knowledge far above the "average" shooter. Andy, I've known you for years, and Absintheur, that's clearly evident from your posts.

I think we can all agree that whatever type of handgun is purchased, revolver OR semiauto, it should be from a high quality manufacturer, right?

For the original poster and his girlfriend, the old "revolver vs semiauto" arguement just confuses the issue.

Andy - I'm sure you would much rather see the lady armed with a good .38 S&W revolver than a POS High Point, right?

Absintheur, I'm sure you would much rather see the lady armed with a 9mm Glock than a POS RG, right?

Armed with any good handgun is better than nothing. Ultimately it come down to what SHE feels the most comfortable with. :)

TR Graham
The Glocksmith

:cool: :thumbup:

Andy
 
well, fwiw, im an instructor as well. fbi firearms instructor school a couple years ago, as well as other firearms and firearms related instructor courses.

both instructors above make valid points, but i suspect the value of their statements is somewhere in between. individual experiences determine preference.

i agree that civilians should start with a med to large revolver. generally less recoil, and this will aid in control of the weapon.

i also agree that an auto is easier to conceal. more in terms of comfort. i find, especially iwb, the cylinder is very uncomfortable.

but also a "flat" pistol will produce a more ambiguous print than a revolver.

just opinions, as is most with firearm preference.

the one universal that everyone will agree on (i think), is shot placement is the key. high cap mags are great, but as stated, have had a tendency to produce a spray and pray effect. i wouldnt take them away, but the emphasis must be on accuracy.
 
In North Carolina, we have to go to our county sheriff and apply for a buyer's permit every single time we want to buy a handgun. Unless, of course, you have a CCW. In that case, the CCW acts as a buyers permit.

That blows. I hate having to say "mother, may I" to the ******* gov't.
 
Why do flat guns carry easier? They both require a holster, they both have to be concealed in some manner, so what is the difference.

Thinner carries and conceals easier than fatter. It ain't rocket science!

Capacity isn't the issue so many make it out to be for a civilian. If you are so inept that 6-7 round rounds won't solve the problem then having 3 times that amount likely won't either.

Ah, yes, the old "if you can't do it with six...." mumbo jumbo.

One thing that is overlooked is that cops have BACKUP a radio call away. If it was a hot call in the first place, backup is already enroute to that location. A civilian, on the other hand, doesn't have a radio that just requires one button to push to summon help. someone ELSE needs to call in the "shots fired" call. The civilian, therefore, has no immediate backup. This places a premium on the number of rounds in the gun, as it will need to last until help comes. (a reload is always a good idea, too)

It is a proven fact that when equipped with a higher capacity firearm there are more misses per firefight than with a revolver.

Training is key. Hicap doesn't a deathray make. But neither does it have to be a "spray and pray" only option. Proper training addresses that.

Average for civilian is 10 feet or so, 3-4 rounds fired, over in under 4 seconds.

I wasn't aware of the guy with the tape measure and stop watch at such things. And the 3-4 rounds fired stat is wrong, because it includes AD's, warning shots, suicides, putting down animals and all such non-defensive incidents that only require ONE shot.

Revolvers are fine weapons. Of the two, they are the easiest to understand and shoot, but it's also the hardest to fire accurately, with speed.

.
 
I'd have to suggest a Glock. A SIG or XD would be my second choices. While I like my Kimber and it is extremely accurate, my Glocks are much lighter and have a higher magazine capacity. I've also come to dislike external safeties, so my Kimber typically lives in the safe.
 
Not that I was ever a great ladies man but I've always made it a habit to attempt to get the women in my life exposed to firearms.

The one thing I've learned is that it doesn't matter what any multi-papered expert thinks a woman should shoot; unless the woman in question chooses what is most comfortable for her to operate.

For autos, things that will kill the whole deal are grips to fat for her likely smaller grip, and slide springs that are so stiff she can't initially pull the slide back. Magazine drop buttons and Ruger revolver cylinder releases also can hang up some women. Weaker fingers and long fingernails can often get in the way. Also stiff magazine springs that make it hard to load the magazine will also make her dislike autos.

Give the woman in question all the information possible in doses she can assimulate and never in a impatient or patronizing manner. In other words, don't bury her in information and expect her to get it all down in one sitting.

A lot will often gravitate to .22 autos since pulling the slide back is so much easier. If that happens; a few times shooting it at the rental center are in order. After she is happy shooting it; just add in a larger caliber but similar auto to the next rental session. She'll often learn that she can pull the tougher spring back now. This is the time to encourage the larger caliber for obvious defensive reasons.

Many will be drawn to a revolver, but only for the ease in which it is to fire when the hammer is pulled back for a single action discharge. They usually don't like shooting the double action.

After each session take her out to coffee or ice cream at a place where you can sit and chat about whatever she wants to talk about.

She'll thank you later...;)
 
Again, there are two issues here: The semi-auto desired by the OP and the gun for his girlfriend. These can easily be two different, yet correct, answers.

.
 
Brand: It's been my experience that single stack 1911s, HK P200s, Sig, Springfield XD and the new M&P are particularly good for smaller hands. Glock 21 SF is also a nice choice. Standard Glock frames are the same circumference for all of the 9mm and 40 cal models, only the length of the barrel and butt are altered.

That said, take her to a range that will let you try several models. You may be surprised at what she likes/doesn't like. My buddy's girlfriend can't weigh more than 110 or so and she loves the Glock 17.

As far as caliber, I suggest the largest one you/she can shoot accurately and are willing to practice with. When shooting to stop, you are trying to cause: A) Mechanical failure, B) Electrical failure, or C) Hydraulic failure. Larger rounds tend to be more effective.

So much for my "work avoidance" tactic. Gotta go do "the nasty".....
 
The one thing I've learned is that it doesn't matter what any multi-papered expert thinks a woman should shoot; unless the woman in question chooses what is most comfortable for her to operate.
Seeing as that statement would seem to be point in a definite direction I will say that in my initial post on the first page I said to try as many different firearms as possible and try to select one that both could be happy with. I did suggest either a 38/357 or 9mm so obviously I didn't say a revolver would be best. But I do think for a starting shooter the 45 is a bit much and the sharper recoil and muzzle blast of the 40 can lead to bad habits like flinching. And smaller caliber should be avoided if possible as they lack power.

Of course a range that rents SD caliber guns will likely rent 22s as well and yes it is a good way to get started in shooting.
 
I'm gonna throw this one out there but you might want to consider a Beretta 92G (you can also get a D for DAO version that has a heavy trigger like a revolver), or SIG P229 or the FN Pro9. For a first gun for a person used to revolvers and for a woman as well, who I am assuming is not that used to pistols either. I think you would be better off with one of the three guns mentioned due to 1)they are among the easiest guns to disassemble/reassemble on the market. 2) They are/can be had in 9mm which is probably best to learn on and then move up to .40/.45 later. 3)They have NO SAFETY, but do have a DECOCKER and on the first round have a long heavy DA pull like a revolver. I know that GLOCK, M&P, etc. has a "sort-of" DA pull, but it is still quite a bit lighter and shorter than a revolver trigger, something you just might to consider or at least be aware of before buying your first pistol. Also know that a Glock and S&W Sigma must be dryfired to be disassembled (I don't know about the XD). If you are apprehensive about switching from revolver to pistol I think it's best to go the most idiot-proof way first and you can also buy a SA or "safe-action" pistol later when you are more comfortable with the semi-auto platform.
 
Seeing as that statement would seem to be point in a definite direction I will say that in my initial post on the first page I said to try as many different firearms as possible and try to select one that both could be happy with. I did suggest either a 38/357 or 9mm so obviously I didn't say a revolver would be best. But I do think for a starting shooter the 45 is a bit much and the sharper recoil and muzzle blast of the 40 can lead to bad habits like flinching. And smaller caliber should be avoided if possible as they lack power.

Of course a range that rents SD caliber guns will likely rent 22s as well and yes it is a good way to get started in shooting.

Absintheur, I value your imput along with several other posters who also frequently post about guns and have similar valuable experience. You can't know it beforehand, but if I disagree with someone, I'd quote them and discuss the disagreement. It was a general statement and includes everyone including the dork or multi-papered expert trying to sell someone a firearm.

It wasn't meant as a backhanded insult to you or anyone else involved with this thread. :)
 
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