Lum Folder vs Lum Fixed Blade (Madpoet/Chiro75 version)

[Chiro75]

WAYYY back when I saw a picture of the original Lum Chinese folder in a knife magazine. I was enamored with it right away and I had completed one of Rob Simonich's Cetan Tanto kits semi-successfully, so I was ready for a new kit project. I had Mel "Madpoet" Sorg (rip) make two kit knives for me. One was a fixed blade version of my drawing of Bob's original Chinese folder. There were some constraints about sizing because of the steel Mel had, so the shape was not quite a rounded. Anyway, I finally, several years later, have my folder version courtesy of Spyderco, and thought a contrast would be interesting. Madpoet's version is made from 5/32" thick D2 recycled from used planer blades. Full flat grind. He fileworked two "A"'s into the spine since my last name starts with an A. I put linen Micarta scales on it and etched something in Chinese (I can't remember what) on the blade! Now, I just need one of Jens Anso's fixed versions of this knife to round out my collection (and one of Bob's Ti handle ones, too, of course).

 

[Rugger]

Cool! I remember that knife! I had always thought that the Lum was one knife that I never would own- the customs are just too spendy for me to justify & Mel's passing had prevented me from obtaining his FB version.
Thanks to Sal & Co. for making this surprizingly comfortable & effective cutter available.

 

[Chiro75]

This was a knife I designed, so as far as I know Mel only made one and this is it! Jens Anso makes one, I think, as a regular pattern and it can't be anything but good if he's the one making it!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Mel's version is a beautiful variant. It looks like a superior chopper. I can imagine a larger version making an excellent camp knife, but this one would be great in a kitchen.

You did a fine job finishing it off. The pins twinkle like stars, and the Micarta grain is spectacular.

 

[tonyccw]

Jens Anso makes one, I think, as a regular pattern and it can't be anything but good if he's the one making it!

You've got that right.

Now, I just need one of Jens Anso's fixed versions of this knife to round out my collection (and one of Bob's Ti handle ones, too, of course).

Like these?

 

[Chiro75]

Ha! That's not a bad start. What'r your address, are you going away for the 4th weekend, and do you have any alarms I need to be aware of?
Actually, I've been commissioned, as a result of this thread, to make a version of the Lum as a fixed blade. Work has started and I'm keeping the details secret until the knife is in its owners hands, but it's going to be pretty cool, I think!

 

[tonyccw]

Actually, I've been commissioned, as a result of this thread, to make a version of the Lum as a fixed blade.

Can't be any cooler than Bob's version. Should be getting mine (in stag) within this month. Should go really well with these:

 

[lreed]

Chiro, you get everything right except the etching part. The word is pronounced as "gown lee", which is translated as utility in most dictionaries. However, this is a negative word in Chinese and is only used in criticisms.

 

[Chiro75]

Uh Oh. I didn't mean to insult anyone! I can't even remember what I was trying to go for with those characters... something involving the word "work" I think, but I made that knife almost 5 years ago... I just sort of looked up the appropriate characters in an English to Chinese dictionary at barnes & Noble and went with it. Oops!

In a similar story, I translated an email to Nemo and one of the things that the computer translated was a come-on line. He was flattered, I'm sure!
:footinmou

 

[lreed]

lol! That word won't insult anyone except may make people who know Chinese smile. It's sometimes hard for western people to really understand a Chinese word. I've seen plenty of cases on etchings and, in unlucky cases, tatoos.

 

[Rugger]

Actually, I've been commissioned, as a result of this thread, to make a version of the Lum as a fixed blade. Work has started and I'm keeping the details secret until the knife is in its owners hands, but it's going to be pretty cool, I think!

heh heh heh heh... I ain't tellin'!

 

[madhaha]

lol! That word won't insult anyone except may make people who know Chinese smile. It's sometimes hard for western people to really understand a Chinese word. I've seen plenty of cases on etchings and, in unlucky cases, tatoos.

A little anecdote: someone asked a local chinese takeaway guy to translate some macho sounding words for him to tattoo onto his arm. After having it done he discovered a) the takeaway had closed down and b) his arm now reads "stupid fat foreigner".

 

[Robert Marotz]

In Mandarin the characters are pronounced "gong li" and while I have seen it accompanied with other characters in Japanese context (I can't remember romaji but in Chinese it's gong li zhu yi - utilitarian emphasis/ideology), in Chinese it is usually used in regards to materialistic people who care a lot about money. Gong ju means "tool" and is a bit more appropriate to something that sees a lot of hard utility work.

Don't worry too much, Chinese is a difficult language, and there are many interesting terms that don't make a lot of sense unless someone teaches them to you. "Soaked" or "drenched" often can be described by a term called "luo tang ji" which literally translates to "fall soup chicken". Calling someone a little person ("xiao ren") does not mean they are physically small, it actually is a comment about their character and is quite insulting.

Lots of fun mistakes one can make

 

[lreed]

Robert is right.

I think when you need to etch or tatoo any Chinese words, it will be helpful to ask a educated Chinese people that you know, or just ask in the forum. Looking it up in the dictionary may not be a good idea. And asking some random Chinese delivery guy in restarant may be worse, cause 1. a lot of such people are not well educated in Chinese literature 2. some low life may give you some mischievous answers.

 

[tonyccw]

heh heh heh heh... I ain't tellin'!

Here's what the original looks like. And you people thought Bob didn't do it in a fixed blade

 

[biogon]

Calling someone a little person ("xiao ren") does not mean they are physically small, it actually is a comment about their character and is quite insulting.

Much agreed. Funny thing is, in English, the meaning and implication is the same.

Small linguistic world, eh!?

-j

 

[Rugger]

Hey Tony,
Thx for the photo- that's sweet! I've handled some of his work @ the NYC shows from years past- very very nice work. I know he's done the FB's- and I don't understand why everybody isn't doing them. It's a great pattern.

 

[tonyccw]

Hey Tony,
Thx for the photo- that's sweet! I've handled some of his work @ the NYC shows from years past- very very nice work.

Then we've probably met. I've been working behind Bob's table at the NY Shows.

I know he's done the FB's- and I don't understand why everybody isn't doing them. It's a great pattern.

He's only done a few of them. Partly because most people don't know about it, and partly because most people prefer the folder. As for why more knifemakers not doing it, I guess it's probably professional courtesy. Most reputable makers would not willing borrow another maker's design without permission.

 

[Chiro75]

Don't know if this intended to be a dig on me, Madpoet, Jens Ansø, et al, but I'all assume it isn't. My understanding, based on as much information as I can find about this pattern, is that it is a traditional pattern that is very common in China. In other words, and again this is just my understanding of it, the pattern is "open" in that it is so common that one need not ask permission to use it, sort of like a Bowie, drop point or what have you.

If I'm wrong about this, then I apologize. Not living in China, I really have no idea whether this is correct or not. I feel like my version of this knife is different enough that it isn't infringing on anyone else's creative work, IMO. My approach to this knife is that it is a common, "open" pattern, I feel like I significantly changed many of the design elements, and in every post about it I have mentioned that the knife was inspired by Bob Lum's folder version and the Spyderco production version. I wouldn't really consider myself a "knifemaker" in that I make under a dozen knives per year, anyway, and each is different.

Anyway, I'll assume you weren't trying to get a dig in on me, Tony, but if I'm asusming incorrectly please come out and say it. If I created this knife based on false preconceptions I certainly apologize, but then again I'll need you to post the exact and specific criteria that draws the line of infringement on someone else's work. The proportions are different on mine, the grind is different, the shape is a little different and the handle is completely different. Even Bob's version of his own knife, which you posted here, is very different from his folder version. It's not curved as much as it has a Loveless style handle.

 

[tonyccw]

Don't know if this intended to be a dig on me, Madpoet, Jens Ansø, et al, but I'all assume it isn't. My understanding, based on as much information as I can find about this pattern, is that it is a traditional pattern that is very common in China. In other words, and again this is just my understanding of it, the pattern is "open" in that it is so common that one need not ask permission to use it, sort of like a Bowie, drop point or what have you.

It wasn't a dig at you. Just conveying what most knifemakers I spoke with would respond (as several did when I asked about how they would respond if a customer asked them to make a copy of a knife that a is well known and associated with a specific maker). Makers often borrow historical patterns and come up with their own interpertation. Much like Bob Lum never claimed credit for the tanto, but simply took the way a tanto was made and modernized it back in the 70's. And the same again when he did the Chinese Folder. I've been collecting for over 25 years and I've yet to see a resolution of this issue. But if you'll note, the key word in my post is "permission". And most knifemakers would generally grant it if they were approached. Since it costs nothing to ask, it really should be considered a step to have completed before proceeding.

As for Anso, I can honestly say that his patterns are entirely unique and was a result of his interpertation of the Chinese Leaf shape design, which is why there's an example of his work in my collection. Because, as you'll note, like Rugger, I'm a huge fan of the Leaf shape blade.

If I'm wrong about this, then I apologize. Not living in China, I really have no idea whether this is correct or not. I feel like my version of this knife is different enough that it isn't infringing on anyone else's creative work, IMO. My approach to this knife is that it is a common, "open" pattern, I feel like I significantly changed many of the design elements, and in every post about it I have mentioned that the knife was inspired by Bob Lum's folder version and the Spyderco production version. I wouldn't really consider myself a "knifemaker" in that I make under a dozen knives per year, anyway, and each is different.

As someone that grew up with that pattern knife, I can vouch for it's "openness". Most every knife maker in Taiwan where I grew up made his own version, but kept most of the lines. But ultimately, the point is that you started with Bob's own version, and proceeded from there. And I saw you attributing the design to Bob, but I know for a fact that Bob had no knowledge that you were doing this.

Anyway, I'll assume you weren't trying to get a dig in on me, Tony, but if I'm asusming incorrectly please come out and say it. If I created this knife based on false preconceptions I certainly apologize, but then again I'll need you to post the exact and specific criteria that draws the line of infringement on someone else's work. The proportions are different on mine, the grind is different, the shape is a little different and the handle is completely different. Even Bob's version of his own knife, which you posted here, is very different from his folder version. It's not curved as much as it has a Loveless style handle.

Your version is indeed different in that you did put in a finger grip. As for the Loveless style handle, there is a similarity, but I've seen it in earlier knives that pre-date Bob Loveless. As for Bob Lum, he's been using that handle style in his working line since the early 1980 (I have several pieces from that period that would verify this). What you will not see much is a exact copy of another maker's work coming out of Bob's shop. He's been highly original since I first met him over 20 years ago. If the Chinese Style takes off, I hope all makers that make them takes the time out to give Bob credit for making the design so popular. Unlike what was done 30 years ago with the Tanto.