M2HS vs ZDP-189

tenman said:
Hypothetical: if a Caly Jr. were made using M2HS, would the performance be similar to the same knife in ZDP?
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Well, Cliff kind of answered this one already, but yes, likely, as long as the M2 is run very hard as well. The other differences, Cliff pointed out already.

There are all kinds of different performance knives: Performance cutters, choppers, prybars etc. They all have their uses. The important thing is to match the intended use. If you want a high performance cutter you need a fine grained steel, run pretty hard and a thin blade geometry. If you want a something you could use in a pinch as screwdriver, you need a tough steel, and a more sturdy edge geometry, but it might still be a high performance tool, just for a different purpose. And depending on your application you might put the trade-offs wherever you like. The Manix is a good example: it clearly sacrifices some tip/blade strength in comparison to a tanto tip for example, but in doing so, you get a very strong knife that has still a very high cutting efficiency and good penetration and a tip that could remove a splinter, so it is all about what you are aiming for.

The problem starts when you clearly mismatch things. If someone is trying to sell a 9 in blade to chop and baton out of steel with low toughness. That would not be a good decision. Also, there are gradients: If two blades are made to chop and require a relatively sturdy geometry of around 15 deg. per side, if one can maintain 12 deg. without edge failure the other one needs more like 17 deg to avoid excessive edge damage doing the same things, the first one is clearly superior. And the first might have achieved that performance by a different steel selection or a different heat treat for example.
 
HoB said:
There are all kinds of different performance knives: Performance cutters, choppers, prybars etc. They all have their uses. The important thing is to match the intended use. If you want a high performance cutter you need a fine grained steel, run pretty hard and a thin blade geometry. If you want a something you could use in a pinch as screwdriver, you need a tough steel, and a more sturdy edge geometry, but it might still be a high performance tool, just for a different purpose.

...

The problem starts when you clearly mismatch things. If someone is trying to sell a 9 in blade to chop and baton out of steel with low toughness. That would not be a good decision. Also, there are gradients: If two blades are made to chop and require a relatively sturdy geometry of around 15 deg. per side, if one can maintain 12 deg. without edge failure the other one needs more like 17 deg to avoid excessive edge damage doing the same things, the first one is clearly superior. And the first might have achieved that performance by a different steel selection or a different heat treat for example.
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Just wanted to quote that as it points out one of the most misunderstood points about cutlery. Start off by defining the goals of the knife, what is is supposed to do well. Now determine which geometry will focus the knife on those goals then get a steel which is optomized for that geometry and the required other aspects. The main reason that people label steels as inferior is rarely because of intrinsic limitations with the steel but the fact simply because the steel isn't suitable for the knife or the heat treatment is sub-optimal.

-Cliff
 
Joshua J., can you please supply a link to the website that you got that chart from? I can't seem to find it on the Hitachi Metals site.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Joshua J., can you please supply a link to the website that you got that chart from? I can't seem to find it on the Hitachi Metals site.
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I do not know how Joshua got one. But I get it directly from Rockstead by e-mail and post it here while ago. Most likely Joshua got it from my post because it named as I named it - http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/YSS.gif



Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili, you bought a bowie in SRS 15 one time IIRC? It seems like I recall a thread about it comparing it to D2 or something. If so that probably makes you the only one on the forum with a long term opinion/knowledge of this steel.

To be honest with you I do think there is something to the smaller carbide and finer grains which some European and Japanese companies are using and introducing here. ZDP 189 really helped convince me, and I have been a M2 user for over 10 years for EDC.

Sure I would love a Phil wilson knife in 15V but I would also love to explore the dozen or two japanese steels that look very suitable for high performance knives. SRS 15 is one. There are a few more Hitachi steels too.
The U2 opened my eyes when I opened the box and started checking it out, just as Spyderco's ZDP knives did. I began to get other steels that were easily available, like Super Blue in a Kanetsune hunter ( which I like very much), etc.

I've got a talonite knife, so I know that's not the answer I'm looking for. Someday I will find one that really satisfies me. In the meantime I'm going to try everything I can get my hands on. I'd even try T15 if I could.

I do know that S30's not the answer either though. BTW, didn't Hitachi and Cowery join some steel making deal and aren't ZDP 189 and Cowery ( is it X or Y) basicly the same product or is that an urban legend?

Joes steel needs wish list: very little sharpening needed, but with a clean, non gummy , very little bur making, no special products beyond DMT diamonds or ceramic stones needed. No carbide breakout at about Rc 66-67 at fairly acute angles with a 3.5 inch straight edged blade ( no need to be able to pry with this knife as I have correct tools for that). Hold very acute angles, sharpen almost as cleanly as VG10. Does not have to be stainless, but we don't want it absorbing colors like a tye dyed Tee shirt, nor rusting as you watch it either. Edge holding as good as CPM 15V. Carving acidic fruit won't slow it down. Oh yeah, a nice looking grain would be a plus. No problems right? Oh yeah, it has to be at the $75 price point with things like FRN handles. Piece of cake for a metallurgist, eh? Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
To be honest with you I do think there is something to the smaller carbide and finer grains which some European and Japanese companies are using and introducing here.
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They have been making knife specific cutlery steels for a long time.

I would also love to explore the dozen or two japanese steels that look very suitable for high performance knives.
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In general, most steel companies will give you samples of their materials especially when they are introducing a new one, and the amount that you would need for a small test blade is trivial to them as a small shop blade can be made from a piece of waste scrap. It is usually better to phone them as they take it more seriously than a email. So send off an email with a request for who to talk to about requesting samples and when to phone.

...aren't ZDP 189 and Cowery ( is it X or Y) basicly the same product or is that an urban legend?
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They are not identical as one contains tungsten and the other vanadian but they are very similar and most would argue are replaceable for each other. Cowry-X also has the full composition listed whereas ZDP-189 is described by Hitachi as 3C20CrMoW, without specifying the Mo/W amounts which usually means they are < 1%.

If we are dreaming up steels, I would like edge stability higher than AEB-L, with the hardness and corrosion resistance of ceramic, a toughness greater than the shock steels and the grindability of 1045.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
They have been making knife specific cutlery steels for a long time.
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I think he is referring to the PM steels, which couldn't have been around longer than 30 years. Bohler, in particular, says that their PM is cleaner and finer than others. I guess he is speculating that the Japanese have similar or better technology.
 
I think he is referring to the PM steels, which couldn't have been around longer than 30 years. Bohler, in particular, says that their PM is cleaner and finer than others. I guess he is speculating that the Japanese have similar or better technology.
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Yes Larrin, most of them are P/M steels listed in things like Vassili's charts, as well as some others I've gotten from the web.

I don't understand why you'd think that I believe Japanese steels or their technology is better than american. I've certainly never said it and don't believe it. The American steels in use currently , like 9V, 15V etc do seem to be dependant on vanadium mostly and have some large carbides. Personally I'm shy about S30V due to edge chipping probably (*note: I stated probably) due to large vanadium carbides ripping out of the matrix under extremely light use. Please don't read this to think I have a belief that Japanese steel technology is better than american. Their use of more tungston, molly, etc seems to make some decent cutlery steel though.

Cliff, I made one stock removal knife in my life. I had/have no shop, tools other than files and a dremmel, not even a place to work. I worked in my living room using my left hand as a vice. I can't see myself making any knives in the future as Osteoarthritis has set in pretty badly and I have had 2 surgeries so far and need at least 6 more. ( I was a 2 job working, weight lifting, martial artist superman type that worked law enforcement for 20 years before being forced to retire) Now I need a cane to get around, so if I can't buy the knife on my pension, I must not need it very badly. Thank you for the advice sincerely though. Regards, Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Yes Larrin, most of them are P/M steels listed in things like Vassili's charts, as well as some others I've gotten from the web.

I don't understand why you'd think that I believe Japanese steels or their technology is better than american. I've certainly never said it and don't believe it. The American steels in use currently , like 9V, 15V etc do seem to be dependant on vanadium mostly and have some large carbides. Personally I'm shy about S30V due to edge chipping probably (*note: I stated probably) due to large vanadium carbides ripping out of the matrix under extremely light use. Please don't read this to think I have a belief that Japanese steel technology is better than american. Their use of more tungston, molly, etc seems to make some decent cutlery steel though.
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I apologize for misinterpreting you. My confusion came from you saying that the European and Japanese steels coming out with "smaller carbide and finer grain" grades. I thought that meant better than American.

Edit: Sorry for all of the edits. :)
 
The Mastiff said:
I can't see myself making any knives in the future as Osteoarthritis has set in pretty badly ...
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That's unfortunate, several members of my family have arthritis, some severe. I was speaking more of obtaining samples for custom makers to use for prototypes for evaluation purposes.

Larrin said:
Bohler, in particular, says that their PM is cleaner and finer than others.
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Every salesmen says they have the best product, this is why in general you don't go to them for unbiased data.

-Cliff
 
the toughness and hardness chart of YXR7 looks similar to uddeholm vanadis 4. personally im a bit interested in uddeholm sverker 3. it doesnt contain any V (which i think is positive when sharpening it), W1.1 C2.05 Cr12.7 max hrc 64 or so supposedly
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If we are dreaming up steels, I would like edge stability higher than AEB-L, with the hardness and corrosion resistance of ceramic, a toughness greater than the shock steels and the grindability of 1045.
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Have you contacted Crucible to see if they can come up with such a steel? Shouldn't be a problem for such an innovative company. ;)
 
"Originally Posted by Cliff Stamp
If we are dreaming up steels, I would like edge stability higher than AEB-L, with the hardness and corrosion resistance of ceramic, a toughness greater than the shock steels and the grindability of 1045"

that was a joke right.? kinda tho.. :D
 
It isn't possible with our current understanding of steels no. You can't even come close to that because some of the properties like grindability and wear resistance are in direct opposition.

-Cliff
 
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