m390 defeated by two paper?

T

TheFun957

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Jun 18, 2020
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Update2: Correcting the update: I think the lionsteel m4 was faulty, the owner wasn't able to test it too, after negotiations, the store owner let me buy something in his store that was same value, but I need to pay him a very small amount to refurbish the M4, I then pay the refurbish fee and add some money and buy a Fallkniven R2 scout, problem solved.

This is my first time posting on blade forum, if this is a wrong sub, please feel free to move it to a suitable place.

I just amazed by the paper that harder than diamond that could dull my new purchased Lionsteel m4 in m390 steel.

I tried multiple time sharpening it with different tool, free hand sharpening without guide, fully reprofile it with diamond at 20 angle and putting 25 angle micro bevel, and at last pull through sharpener (yes its evil but I am truly frustrated) from worksharp

All the edge on the m4 wont survive 2 printer paper, 5 cut of cupboard, or some random wood. On the paper, it went from cleanly slice, to barely cut the paper, then tear paper with the weight of the knife. The best edge (fully reprofile with diamond) last much longer, around 3 paper.

I have another ZT 20cv survive cutting lots of cupboard and only need small touch up.


This seems to be very weird, I think it might be a heat treat problem. I emailed lionsteel and will update this thread in case they reply.

I attached image in case anyone want to see the knife.

https://imgur.com/a/FXicGS9
 
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Here goes the pull through sharpener

29wp9s.jpg
 
I think you guys didn't read the OP's post correctly. He only used a pull-through sharpener as a last resort after trying the "normal" sharpening methods in order to get a decent edge.

Yes, I would tend to believe it is a heat treat issue as I have several Lionsteel M390 knives that take (and hold) a very sharp edge.
 
Well the title is M390 and the steel on the box is M4. I"m sure all the other notes are as accurate.
 
shane45-1911 said:
I think you guys didn't read the OP's post correctly. He only used a pull-through sharpener as a last resort after trying the "normal" sharpening methods in order to get a decent edge.

Yes, I would tend to believe it is a heat treat issue as I have several Lionsteel M390 knives that take (and hold) a very sharp edge.
Click to expand...

Ah, I read it like that was the order of his sharpening, with the pull-through being the "final touch", as it were. Still, those are the absolute worst.

Definitely sounds like it could be a heat treat problem, if OP is able to get a good edge on 20CV.

Danke42 said:
Well the title is M390 and the steel on the box is M4. I"m sure all the other notes are as accurate.
Click to expand...

That's the model. They have an M1, M4, M2, M3, M5, M7...all in M390 from what I can tell.
 
No experience with 390 but since 20CV is practically the same thing, I can speak to that. I have a Spyderco Mule in 20CV that responds very well to DMT fine (600 grit) and easily takes a highly polished edge with extra-fine (1200 grit), It does have a very thin high grind; maybe your Lionsteel has a thicker profile so it may not be as easy to hone. I'd try using a coarse grit (I use a DMT Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse (220 grit)) to establish the bevel you want, then go on to finer grits once you've raise a burr. An angle guide helps a great deal with stubborn edges.
 
The Italians (Lionsteel, MKM, Viper, etc) are known to run their M390 a bit soft. I'm guessing this is probably the issue. I have knives in M390 from multiple manufacturers, 20cv from ZT, and CTS-204p from Spyderco, and have been impressed by them all, most notable 204p.
 
20 DPS is 40 degrees inclusive. A 25 degree micro bevel makes it 50 degrees inclusive.
40 and 50 degrees inclusive are not "sharp". Both are more obtuse than an axe/hatchet edge should be.

Try taking it to 10 to 12 DPS, and if you insist on a micro bevel, no more than 15 degrees for that.

I reprofile and thin all my folding knives to 10 DPS using a guided rod system that can go that acute. I never use a micro bevel. (why dull the edge?) Dry stropping is usually all that is required to maintain the edge.

The more acute the edge, the sharper it is, and, tho it seems it would be the other way around, an acute edge holds a "working edge" much longer than an obtuse edge does.

BTW, a working edge is what you are using 99.99% of the time. It can only take one to three cuts, depending on what you're doing, to erase that "hair popping"/"hair whittling"/"shaving sharp" edge.

I suggest you take all your pull through "sharpeners" ("dullers" is a more accurate term/description) and insert them into the nearest incinerator, or drop them off around the middle of the nearest navigable river or lake, or if you have a suitable boat (or have friends that do) and you are along the coast, or reside on one of the many islands in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans, drop them overboard say 5 to 6 miles offshore in International Waters. If none of these are an option, destroy them however you can, so they are unusable, then bury the pieces.

Draw through "sharpeners" ("dullers") destroy the blade, regardless of what the blade steel is. Invest in oil or water stones, or diamond plates, and some inexpensive knives (FROST, or offshore BTI Schrade Imperial, for instance) to learn how to freehand sharpen with, before going to your good knives. Or get a guided rod system that doesn't use a thumb screw clamp to hold the blade (the thumb screw blocks the stone at acute angles). WorkSharp has a nice adjustable angle guided rod system that goes from 5 DPS (straight razor) to 30 DPS (really dull axe? I don't know what should be "sharpened" to that obtuse an angle. Even a chisel is only 35 to 45 degrees.)

60 ~ 61 years ago when I was taught how to sharpen freehand, knife were 10 DPS. Raise the spine just enough tso the flats don't hit the stone, push the edge. Flip the blade and repeat as needed. Axes and hatchets were 15 degrees per side.
Dry strop to remove any "🤬🤬 oops" wire edge.
After setting the edge, dry stropping was/is usually all that was/is needed to maintain a working edge. A visit to the sharpening stones or a ceramic/glass hone or a butcher's steel was/is rarely needed.
 
A Alberta Ed , K.O.D. K.O.D. and afishhunter afishhunter all bringing valuable points along with the HT mentioned by Shane.
I had similar experience with softer Italian steel but I think the OP problem is the angle he was trying to put on the knife and the pull sharpener… I used inexpensive Lansky “Fixed” not-so, angle for years and their diamonds and came to realize that really holding proper angle for the particular steel is very important. Now I’m only using WE and I’m very happy with the diamonds and the 3M lapping films if I want more polished edge. However I think a fish hunter got the angles right, this steel, if properly HTed will need lower grit bevel finished with little bit higher grit micro bevel if any, it might be ok with some rough stropping. I’m really curious to see how the OP will update if he got better results with the suggested angles.
 
Thanks you all for the respond. But I Think I need to clear some miss understanding:

1. Lionsteel m4 is the knife name, the steel used is m390

2. I think you all can forgot about the pull through sharpener, I usually sharpen freehand with dc4 in the outdoor, or use angle guide sharpener at home if I need a special perfect angle that I am not familiar. I tried the pull through only because I am curious and frustrated. I am not novice but certainly not expert either at sharpening, the pull through is for crap knife if I am lazy only.

3. I has sharpened s35vn, 3v, 1095, 20cv, and some other unknown cheap stainless, all able to slice paper cleanly without noticable dull. I usually put 20 angle with 25 micro bevel because I notice the edge last longer and easier to resharpen (correct me if I am wrong)

I will give it a last chance: dull it and completely reprofile and sharpen without micro beveling it. All knife I used for outdoor go through the same process and they all works except this one.

Will post later for the result.
 
TheFun957 said:
Thanks you all for the respond. But I Think I need to clear some miss understanding:

1. Lionsteel m4 is the knife name, the steel used is m390

2. I think you all can forgot about the pull through sharpener, I usually sharpen freehand with dc4 in the outdoor, or use angle guide sharpener at home if I need a special perfect angle that I am not familiar. I tried the pull through only because I am curious and frustrated. I am not novice but certainly not expert either at sharpening, the pull through is for crap knife if I am lazy only.

3. I has sharpened s35vn, 3v, 1095, 20cv, and some other unknown cheap stainless, all able to slice paper cleanly without noticable dull. I usually put 20 angle with 25 micro bevel because I notice the edge last longer and easier to resharpen (correct me if I am wrong)

I will give it a last chance: dull it and completely reprofile and sharpen without micro beveling it. All knife I used for outdoor go through the same process and they all works except this one.

Will post later for the result.
Click to expand...
1. If you have sharpened 20cv you have sharpened m390

2. Dont dull it. Ypu will have to remove more metal to sharpen it to the proper angle.
 
You keep saying "I take it to 20 degree and a 25 degree mico bevel"
Is that per side (40 and 50 degree inclusive) or inclusive (10 and 12.5 degrees per side)?
 
afishhunter said:
You keep saying "I take it to 20 degree and a 25 degree mico bevel"
Is that per side (40 and 50 degree inclusive) or inclusive (10 and 12.5 degrees per side)?
Click to expand...
My bad, I should've say it clearly, its 20 and 25 micro bevel per side. I want a durable edge for outdoor knife so would not go low.
 
Imgur

The first image was the edge after sharpening, second and third are after slicing paper and started to dull a little bit. Sharpened this morning with 20 angle per side on diamond, no micro bevel.

At start it could fast slice, then you will need to slice really slow and careful or other wise paper would tear, just same as yesterday.

I tested cutting cupboard yesterday and all it need is 3 cut to dull the edge. I messaged the reseller and had the knife sending back for inspection.

Will update later on this.
 
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