m390 defeated by two paper?

[POCEH KOCEB]

My bad, I should've say it clearly, its 20 and 25 micro bevel per side. I want a durable edge for outdoor knife so would not go low.

Way too much per site IMO. Try 35 inclusive and just strop the bevel around 18 or up to 20 degree per site if you can do it.
This should be sufficient angle for outdoor use and processing some game.
You can also follow the angles from a fish hunter’s post earlier in the thread.

 

[TheFun957]

Way too much per site IMO. Try 35 inclusive and just strop the bevel around 18 or up to 20 degree per site if you can do it.
This should be sufficient angle for outdoor use and processing some game.
You can also follow the angles from a fish hunter’s post earlier in the thread.

I might be interested in trying this once I got my knife back, but I truly don't think steel like m390 would be dull by cutting 3 slice of cupboard, at lease not at 20 angle.

 

[afishhunter]

My bad, I should've say it clearly, its 20 and 25 micro bevel per side. I want a durable edge for outdoor knife so would not go low.

So inclusive.
Like I said earlier: 40 and 50 degrees inclusive is not "sharp" by any stretch of the imagination.
That is more obtuse/dull than an axe or hatchet.
If you want sharp go to a more acute edge. 10 to 15 degrees MAXIMUM per side.

If you want a visual, on a piece of paper, draw a straight horizontal line, then two vertical lines. On one vertice line, using your compass, mark a spot at 20 degrees and 25 degrees on both side not the vertical line. Connect then to where the straight verticals line meets the horizontal line.
On the other vertical line, mark 10 degrees on each side of the vertical line and connect to where the vertical line meets the horizontal line.
You've have a "V" on both.
That is your cutting edge. The straight vertical line is the center blade of your blade.
Which do you think is going to cut better? The WIDE "V" or the NARROW "V"? As the edges wear, which do you think will stay sharper (have the more acute angle) longer?

Thin the edge of your blade by going to a 10 or 12 degree angle on each side. Forget the micro bevel. Your knife will cut better, and require less sharpening.

I have my"outdoor" folding knives, lseveral Buck 110's, including those with CPM154, S30V, and 5160 carbon steel, as well as those with standard 420HC, and a vintage Old Timer 7OT with a 1095 carbon steel blade at 10 degrees per side, no micro bevel. Any of them will peel and gut at least three whitetail deer before they need stropped. I can whittle/carve tent stakes, hotdog/marshmallow sticks, feather sticks, trap triggers, and debark kindling if/as needed, with no edge damage.
I can also cut down saplings for a shelter with a single cut (stress the sapling, then make your cut in the outside of where it is stressed)
I've been doing so for over 60 years. THIN ACUTE EDGES work better and are USABLE longer than FAT WIDE OBTUSE EDGES.

Do this, and you'll swear your using a different knife, the cutting performance and edge retention will improve that much.

Obviously, though, you're young, and probably won't listen to an old fart.

I'm out of here.

 

[afishhunter]

I might be interested in trying this once I got my knife back, but I truly don't think steel like m390 would be dull by cutting 3 slice of cupboard, at lease not at 20 angle.

Umm .. cardboard is extremely abrasive. Lots of Silica, Sand, and other impurities. Cardboard dulls any knife blade quickly.

 

[TheFun957]

Umm .. cardboard is extremely abrasive. Lots of Silica, Sand, and other impurities. Cardboard dulls any knife blade quickly.

Yes I know that, but 3 cut to dull a m390? even my plain old becker in 1095 can do better than that

 

[TheFun957]

So inclusive.
Like I said earlier: 40 and 50 degrees inclusive is not "sharp" by any stretch of the imagination.
That is more obtuse/dull than an axe or hatchet.
If you want sharp go to a more acute edge. 10 to 15 degrees MAXIMUM per side.

If you want a visual, on a piece of paper, draw a straight horizontal line, then two vertical lines. On one vertice line, using your compass, mark a spot at 20 degrees and 25 degrees on both side not the vertical line. Connect then to where the straight verticals line meets the horizontal line.
On the other vertical line, mark 10 degrees on each side of the vertical line and connect to where the vertical line meets the horizontal line.
You've have a "V" on both.
That is your cutting edge. The straight vertical line is the center blade of your blade.
Which do you think is going to cut better? The WIDE "V" or the NARROW "V"? As the edges wear, which do you think will stay sharper (have the more acute angle) longer?

Thin the edge of your blade by going to a 10 or 12 degree angle on each side. Forget the micro bevel. Your knife will cut better, and require less sharpening.

I have my"outdoor" folding knives, lseveral Buck 110's, including those with CPM154, S30V, and 5160 carbon steel, as well as those with standard 420HC, and a vintage Old Timer 7OT with a 1095 carbon steel blade at 10 degrees per side, no micro bevel. Any of them will peel and gut at least three whitetail deer before they need stropped. I can whittle/carve tent stakes, hotdog/marshmallow sticks, feather sticks, trap triggers, and debark kindling if/as needed, with no edge damage.
I can also cut down saplings for a shelter with a single cut (stress the sapling, then make your cut in the outside of where it is stressed)
I've been doing so for over 60 years. THIN ACUTE EDGES work better and are USABLE longer than FAT WIDE OBTUSE EDGES.

Do this, and you'll swear your using a different knife, the cutting performance and edge retention will improve that much.

Obviously, though, you're young, and probably won't listen to an old fart.

I'm out of here.

Well, I respect your opinion and thanks for sharing your experience. But no need for starting to explain how edge work, I am not first day handling a knife.

First I would explain why I always sharpen at 20 angle with 25 micro bevel. I was intended to use this knife as hard use wood knife, for featherstick, wood carving, slight chopping and batoning on small wood, I sharpened at this angle because all the knife I used was at this angle, and they work so far for me. Sure lower angle would work better for skinning and food prep (mostly slicing work), I know this because I have a kitchen knife sharpened with edge pro at 10 angle per side to a mirror polish.

I agree that you would be able to do all that above with an average steel or tough steel, but m390 is known to chip because of the carbide structure if going too thin at low angle, especially if you are trying to cut hard target.

40/50 inclusive angle is duller than axe? Then is it some sort of miracle that my 3v tanto with 20 angle and 25 micro bevel glide through newspaper by just touching it?

You can try sharpen a high carbide steel like m390, or something like s110v to a thin 10 angle per side, then try chop some small tree stick with it, you will know what I mean.

Actually, all the above is off topic discussion.

Do you truly believe, a super steel like m390, fresh sharpened from course diamond going up to fine ceramic and stropping with compound, would get dulled by cutting 2 piece of paper?

If you don't believe me, the lionsteel m4 factory edge come shaving sharp at 15 angle perside, which quickly dulled after cutting some wood. Even my becker which is only a carbon steel slice paper cleanly after processed wood for a day.

After sharpening with different method with different tools at different angle, I would rather believe its manufacture heat treating defect, rather than the knife angle, I handle lots of knife for normal use, hard use, collection purpose and never see a knife like this.

If you truly believe m390 would dull enough to tear paper by only cutting wood/2 sheet of paper/3 cut on cupboard, then I guess we wouldn't need further discussion.

 

[SCTorrero]

10 DPS, 20 inclusive is considerably more acute than would come from factory. A factory edge should not wear as fast as OP is describing.

Optimal DPS is a separate question. It may be 10 DPS, which would be more acute than conventional wisdom. Unconventional doesn’t mean wrong, of course.

It just seems people may be talking past each other, but I’ll show myself out.

 

[TheFun957]

For reference, this is how lionsteel m390 should last: Lionsteel m390 test cutting.

I could only guess its heat treating issue.

 

[knoefz]

I'm late with my suggestion, but I'd try looking at your edge with a magnifying glass to see if maybe your bur isn't completely removed. To me it sounds a bit like it' possible your first cuts are made with the bur that then folds in after a few cuts making a dull edge.

Hope your dealer makes thing right for you. My experience with Lionsteels customer service directly had been excellent in the past.

 

[The Grendels]

A month or so ago I was just about to buy an M5 or M4, humming and hawing over whether to go with Sleipner steel (because I didn't have any knives with that steel) or M390. That delay caused me to become aware of a bunch of recent complaints, more than I would have expected, so I've delayed making the purchase in favour of other sharp point things. I do still plan to buy one at some point, but not just right now.

 

[353]

I know I read somewhere that Lionsteel had issues with M390 and the performance some time ago.

I thought this was sorted out, but maybe not. When was the blade produced?

 

[TheFun957]

I know I read somewhere that Lionsteel had issues with M390 and the performance some time ago.

I thought this was sorted out, but maybe not. When was the blade produced?

The dealer just got them in stock some months ago, I also notice that newer one have a blue sponge at the knife edge in the package, while the old one just put the knife into plastic and come with knife inside sheath.

Mine come with the sponge, so I guess that's a high possibility it was produced this year, but cannot confirm unless I ask the dealer.

 

[353]

The dealer just got them in stock some months ago, I also notice that newer one have a blue sponge at the knife edge in the package, while the old one just put the knife into plastic and come with knife inside sheath.

Mine come with the sponge, so I guess that's a high possibility it was produced this year, but cannot confirm unless I ask the dealer.

Ok, the issues was very low hardness when the blades was tested. Like 55-56 HRC, or something like that(I cant recall for sure).

I suspect the same thing with your blade.

I would return it and look for another brand to be honest. But thats me..

 

[TheFun957]

A month or so ago I was just about to buy an M5 or M4, humming and hawing over whether to go with Sleipner steel (because I didn't have any knives with that steel) or M390. That delay caused me to become aware of a bunch of recent complaints, more than I would have expected, so I've delayed making the purchase in favour of other sharp point things. I do still plan to buy one at some point, but not just right now.

I was amazed when I see that price for a m390 fixed blade, I don't know if its the price caused the bad heat treating, but I guess you get what you pay.

 

[TheFun957]

Ok, the issues was very low hardness when the blades was tested. Like 55-56 HRC, or something like that(I cant recall for sure).

I suspect the same thing with your blade.

I would return it and look for another brand to be honest. But thats me..

I think I wont be buying any lionsteel knife in the future even if I got a working replacement, mainly because you can't tell the difference of HRC without using the knife.

They are beautiful for a collector item or light use, but I doubt it will be a good worksman blade. I guess I will get refund or just buy something I need from his store, that is if he agree.

But I might as well keep it if I got a good replacement since I already bought a custom sheath.

 

[353]

I think I wont be buying any lionsteel knife in the future even if I got a working replacement, mainly because you can't tell the difference of HRC without using the knife.

They are beautiful for a collector item or light use, but I doubt it will be a good worksman blade. I guess I will get refund or just buy something I need from his store, that is if he agree.

But I might as well keep it if I got a good replacement since I already bought a custom sheath.

Yeah, I also remember reading somewhere that heat treating M390 is somewhat complicated compared to other steels.

Maybe that is the case here? Again, it is hard to tell but the incomming reports tell their tale and I have stayed away from Lionsteel for that very reason.

 

[Oklahoma Outlaw]

So, the Italian M390 is al dente? Imagine that.

 

[353]

So, the Italian M390 is al dente? Imagine that.

Well, its actually NOT al dente, its to soft!! Been boiling for to long!

 

[TheFun957]

So, the Italian M390 is al dente? Imagine that.

I don't what is 'al dente', but I get it, I wouldn't say all of them, but lemon do occur even on the best manufacture. But a quick search over the internet and I found that lionsteel m390 has higher rate(compared to other m390/20cv knife of course) of defect, and tend to be softer than expected.

 

[Chronovore]

Angle issues aside, I see three possibilities:

1. You got a counterfeit in some kind of junk steel. Just to rule this one out, did you buy it from a reputable dealer?

2. It could be a lemon. However rare, it can happen. Before entertaining this possibility...

3. How much steel have you removed in sharpening? Sometimes, the steel along a factory edge can be burnt or fatigued. This is part of why factory edges are rarely a good indicator of how well a given steel will perform. You might just have a particularly bad example of this effect.