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Medford uses D2 for almost everything.
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M390 toughness?
- Thread starter TigFur
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yeah i know that
Chart from Crucible:
Of course, geometry and hardening matter, but if D2 and similar are considered "tough," what are S7 and H13? XXXL-tough lol.
Are they tough enough for cutlery and worth it for the edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc.? Usually, but I wouldn't pick 10v, D2, or M4 for a demolition tool. Just depends on what you want and what you're doing with it.
"demolition tool"? We are still talking about knives right? D2 could handle anything i would do to a knife, i saw people doing even more with it... the only problems were microchipping and the fact that it cant hold a razor edge... What would you need THAT toughness even for? are there some people trying to stop a tank with it? or does that actually help with the sharpest angle grinds? like.. a really really thin kitchen knife that you can baton with? that would be cool
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I simply reiterated the same point several others made: compared to steels that are actually tough, D2, M390, and many other popular cutlery steels aren't tough at all in a general sense. I'm not commissioning small folders in S7 and I don't have anything against M390 though.
If you want to know how tough M390 is, compared to other steels that aren't tough, for applications that don't require much toughness, I guess I can't help much. If you're looking for a "tough" steel to use in a fixed blade that you want to withstand things that people consider "abuse," then m390, D2, etc. wouldn't be my first choice. Not saying they couldn't be sufficient, but they still wouldn't be my first choice.
If you want to know how tough M390 is, compared to other steels that aren't tough, for applications that don't require much toughness, I guess I can't help much. If you're looking for a "tough" steel to use in a fixed blade that you want to withstand things that people consider "abuse," then m390, D2, etc. wouldn't be my first choice. Not saying they couldn't be sufficient, but they still wouldn't be my first choice.
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As much as I love cpm10v, I am confused as to how/why it's being brought into a thread about m390 toughness ...?
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Did someone ask a question or did he come here to school us?
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It seems to me ..., that marthinus hit the nail on the head with this reply;
" You can heat treat M390 with corrosion and wear resistance in mind or with toughness and wear resistance in mind. Both would have the same hardness but completely different properties. "
The chemical/elemental makeup of a steel is but one factor determining its physical properties and attributes. The intended usage of a knife/tool needs to be the primary factor related to design. The geometry, heat treat & tempering can play a larger role in determining performance than does the steel billet composition.
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If by chance that was directed at me, ... please tell me more. Sounds like something that perhaps needs airing, or ...
I was merely asking what I missed, as I have interest in both m390 & 10v (two favorites of mine).
CharlieMike,
Looks like some really nice progression in your blade grinding there ++++
That Bowie is sick!!
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Thanks! All freehand unsupported on a 1/33hp 1x42.
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If the shoe fits? That was for the OP, if you must know...
Im just here to figure out why people say its not tough at all, it really made me worried.
So it seems there there are other steels with toughness in mind that are obviously much tougher, but they dont have such edge retention capabilities. And from what i understand from you guys it seems that m390 is tough enough to withstand anything (given its in a blade designed for that and not a thin kitchen knife)
so that leaves the question, what is toughness in knives good for if a "not at all tough" steel can handle it all?
So it seems there there are other steels with toughness in mind that are obviously much tougher, but they dont have such edge retention capabilities. And from what i understand from you guys it seems that m390 is tough enough to withstand anything (given its in a blade designed for that and not a thin kitchen knife)
so that leaves the question, what is toughness in knives good for if a "not at all tough" steel can handle it all?
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How do you define edge retention? Slow wear? Then yes. Tough steels will not chip easily as other steels, then they will have better edge retention.
Going to try and keep this simple. Less chance of issues developing such as fatigue (related to crack growth) over prolonged "tough" use and unwanted severe impact.
As an example. Ed Schempp used a 52100 in clad 15N20 for years in Bladesports while those that used CPM-M4 experienced work hardening and a blade would crack after a year or two in use.
Basically, all steels are a give and take between basic properties of Edge performance, Toughness and Corrosion resistance (in simple terms).
Read this as a good start.
http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/strip-steel/strip-products/knife-steel/knife-steel-knowledge/
Thanks, that was informative
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Actually, I picked up a couple of Skrama bush knives a few months ago. Kept one and gave one to my brother. They use 8CrV2 carbon steel and are ground thinner at the edge than some of my kitchen knives and more than half of my Spydercos, less than .015" iirc. They have been used fairly hard for chopping, clearing, batoning work and so far I haven't seen either one take any damage. I've been really impressive at how the thin geometry has had up and the chopping performance is awesome. They also make them in a stainless option equivalent to 12C27, but I don't have one.
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highestpoint
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This.. It's all give and take. That's why there are a variety of so many different steels. M390 is one of the more balanced universal applications and is probably why it is a huge fan favorite.
I don't think you should be worried about it's toughness at all.
Glad to hear that!
You are right，I'm fully agree with you。
I have been sale m390 almost 2 years. I have try diffrend heatreat way to m390（not bos ，not peter ，but bohler company in china ）
two diff heatreat way to m390
If you just for folding knives，you can use high temper and get hardness about HRC61，high temper mean more wear and more hardness，but less tough and corrosion.
low temper mean more corrosion more tough but less wear.
*In general it not tough。
来自我的 Redmi Pro 上的 Tapatalk
This might sound obtuse. But a lot of this kind of discussion often relates to using a knife for all kinds of things that might be better approached with other tools. I think it often stems from a survival view about having one thing to do it all.
I have never broken any knife.
If you cut with your knife, pry with a pry bar, and chop with an axe, it allows you to pick a blade to cut, and a steel that gives you what you want for that.
A slicer, a chopper, and a pry bar are 3 different things. Combining them ends up compromising all of them, IMO.
For a slicing knife, M390 is an excellent choice, IMO.
I have never broken any knife.
If you cut with your knife, pry with a pry bar, and chop with an axe, it allows you to pick a blade to cut, and a steel that gives you what you want for that.
A slicer, a chopper, and a pry bar are 3 different things. Combining them ends up compromising all of them, IMO.
For a slicing knife, M390 is an excellent choice, IMO.
I agree with you.
But i had already two cheaper knives tips broken on me while just gently carving out a hole into soft wood and another knife when it fell on the wooden floor out of my hand, it might have been cheaper heat treating and steel but it gives you a very bad feeling nevertheless. You do get very nervous buying more expensive knives. i had a very big Nieto knife break on me while chopping branches off. (broke inside the handle) Well thats one of the reasons why i decided to go with full tang fixed blades.
Folders? The amount of abuse my first folder knives had to go through before i learnt to treat knives with a little more respect was enormous. One ended so blunt and wobbly that i used it as a prep for acting, training etc. and the other two fell apart inro all the pieces they could... and maybe more.
I remember the edge being rounder and duller than the spine with about the same thickness... haha good old times
Bending a tip buried in wood can break off the tip in a lot of knives.
But a woodcarving knife can do that quite well.
One knife that excels at wood work, and also many survival and camping tasks is a Mora.
It's a very inexpensive and plain looking knife, but it is one of the most well-regarded bushcraft knives. It uses 1095 in the carbon models, as 12C27 in the stainless models. The heat treatment makes the steel work, and the plastic handles are virtually indestructible. It is an excellent example of making good cheap steels perform better than expected. I would strongly recommend getting a Mora Companion and seeing what a performer it is for the money. EZ to sharpen too. You might just be spoiled forever by a $13 knife. You wouldn't be the first one it happened to.
I have several Mora knives in stainless for field use and camp food prep.
I have folders in ATS34, S30V, M390 and CPM 154.
I have larger fixed blades in ATS34 and 1095.
My parang and machete are in 1084.
They all do well for their intended roles.
I guess my point is that blade steel is only one factor, and a lot depends on many other things.
But a woodcarving knife can do that quite well.
One knife that excels at wood work, and also many survival and camping tasks is a Mora.
It's a very inexpensive and plain looking knife, but it is one of the most well-regarded bushcraft knives. It uses 1095 in the carbon models, as 12C27 in the stainless models. The heat treatment makes the steel work, and the plastic handles are virtually indestructible. It is an excellent example of making good cheap steels perform better than expected. I would strongly recommend getting a Mora Companion and seeing what a performer it is for the money. EZ to sharpen too. You might just be spoiled forever by a $13 knife. You wouldn't be the first one it happened to.
I have several Mora knives in stainless for field use and camp food prep.
I have folders in ATS34, S30V, M390 and CPM 154.
I have larger fixed blades in ATS34 and 1095.
My parang and machete are in 1084.
They all do well for their intended roles.
I guess my point is that blade steel is only one factor, and a lot depends on many other things.
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I broke a tip on my Shirogorov m390 blade. I still do not know what caused it. I just found tip missing. I did not do any heavy duty work with it. I was Slicing some thermofoil on mdf, and I also had it fallen out of my pants pocket later in the day (the knife did not even open.). I picked it up and the tip was missing. I do not feel like buying either shirogorov or m390 ever again. I do not care about their warranty. I believe such tools shall not fail so easily.