Machax bow build & other Shenanigans

[Warriors Meadow]

CM_Rick

I just watched your video on how to sharpen the machax and I was wondering if you could post it here for others to see. I know this was one thing that was intimidating me about this blade but your video made it seem so easy. I had read about putting different grind angles (25° for chopping and 20 for carving) on the knife to maximize it's effectiveness. Would this make that much of a difference? Is this why you chose your angle to split the difference? You mentioned in the video about getting it working sharp, is there an easy way to take the sharpness to the next level?

Thanks and I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to get the most out of my blade and you seem to have a lot of practical experience and knowledge with it.

W.M.

 

[bootzon]

Ty,
You and me both. I've done a lot of research on bow building and I'm on v2/4 of The Bowyer's Bible.

Just curious what brought you you this thread. You a bowyer, archer, fan of the machax or just curious?

WM, I recently traded for a BK4 with another member here. The more I use it, the better I like it. So, I guess you'd have to put me down as a fan of the machax.
I anticipate you doing a wide variety of work from heavy to delicate and I'm interested in how you rate it for those tasks.
Good luck and enjoy the project.

I posted this days ago when the site was having issues and apparently my response was eaten.

 

[CM_Rick]

CM_Rick

I just watched your video on how to sharpen the machax and I was wondering if you could post it here for others to see. I know this was one thing that was intimidating me about this blade but your video made it seem so easy. I had read about putting different grind angles (25° for chopping and 20 for carving) on the knife to maximize it's effectiveness. Would this make that much of a difference? Is this why you chose your angle to split the difference? You mentioned in the video about getting it working sharp, is there an easy way to take the sharpness to the next level?

Thanks and I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to get the most out of my blade and you seem to have a lot of practical experience and knowledge with it.

W.M.

I don't care for "razor" edges on my woods knives. They are way too delicate. I like the 22.5 degree angle for toughness, while still giving me a nice carving edge. This way I don't have any weird edge transitions along my blade. If you want to take the edge to the next level get some higher grits, and strop it. You can even convex the edge with my set up by putting mouse pad under the sand paper, and using a reverse motion. Thanks for the interest, and the view support. I did post that vid here when I made it, but a repost couldn't hurt anything. [emoji106]
http://youtu.be/DOvtz4k_7Dw

 

[Warriors Meadow]

I don't care for "razor" edges on my woods knives. They are way too delicate. I like the 22.5 degree angle for toughness, while still giving me a nice carving edge. This way I don't have any weird edge transitions along my blade. If you want to take the edge to the next level get some higher grits, and strop it. You can even convex the edge with my set up by putting mouse pad under the sand paper, and using a reverse motion. Thanks for the interest, and the view support. I did post that vid here when I made it, but a repost couldn't hurt anything. [emoji106]
http://youtu.be/DOvtz4k_7Dw

Thanks for posting your video. I'm sure lots of people will find it very helpful. I can see you're saying by "delicate". I'll definitely try the 22.5° edge when the time comes. What about a pocket stone or sharpening system for field use. I've seen a couple that are already set to 22.5°. Do you use or recommend any of those?

BTW I really enjoyed your BK20 video with Ethan.

Thanks
W.M.

 

[CM_Rick]

Thanks for posting your video. I'm sure lots of people will find it very helpful. I can see you're saying by "delicate". I'll definitely try the 22.5° edge when the time comes. What about a pocket stone or sharpening system for field use. I've seen a couple that are already set to 22.5°. Do you use or recommend any of those?

BTW I really enjoyed your BK20 video with Ethan.

Thanks
W.M.

Thanks for watching the 20 vid. I really appreciate your view, and compliment.

I recommend using whatever method you're comfortable using in the field. Sharpening out in the bush can be difficult especially when one might be used to bench stones in perfect conditions. When I take a recurve blade, and foresee edge maintenance, I'll take this guy with me without the brace, and guide. I'll use this stone freehand, because that's all I've ever really done in the field (though my blocks do work well at camp). The 22.5 degrees is something I do from muscle memory.

 

[Warriors Meadow]

Thanks for watching the 20 vid. I really appreciate your view, and compliment.

I recommend using whatever method you're comfortable using in the field. Sharpening out in the bush can be difficult especially when one might be used to bench stones in perfect conditions. When I take a recurve blade, and foresee edge maintenance, I'll take this guy with me without the brace, and guide. I'll use this stone freehand, because that's all I've ever really done in the field (though my blocks do work well at camp). The 22.5 degrees is something I do from muscle memory.

I was thinking of a sharpening rod for the sheath and this just confirmed that idea.

That makes my current birthday list as follows:
-sharpening rod even thou i still like the idea of this

-ferro rod with striker (haven't decided which one yet)

-BK14 (I've asked for the 13 for father's day)

-skinth mondo

- this quiver (I'm turning an old MEC hydration pack into a bow hunting kit and plan on securing this to the side)

W.M.

 

[CM_Rick]

Glad I could help


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[Warriors Meadow]

Good evening everyone,

I hope everyone is doing well. I haven't had a lot of time to get out lately and play in the woods, you know how busy life can get, but I did want to check in with everyone interested in my build.

I did managed to get out once in may to my father in laws hunting property. I used my knife to clean some trails, bush and to practice general skills with. I'm still super impressed by and loving my BK4. It feels like an extension in my hand when carrying it. It was always with me and the weight was never an issue sheathed/ unsheathed. My father in law was also very impressed it and by how sharp the blade still was after using it.

I also identified what I believe to be hop horn beam and from what I read has very similar bow making properties to hickory. The next time I go back I plan to cut down a tree or two to get it seasoning for my bow(s).

I plan to use my BK4 to chop the tree(s) down but I'm curious if I can use it safely to split the trunk into bow staves by strategically battoning it. I'm thinking probably not as they'll be almost 6' logs up to 2' in diameter. Any advice on how to do this safely would be appreciated as I really want this to be the only tool I use.

Thanks
W.M.


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[Warriors Meadow]

Goos evening everyone.

My BK4 got a few new friends this weekend. I had asked my kids for the BK13 for father's day and my wife placed the order with my birthday order to avoid shipping fees. She surprised me and gave me my BK13 with everything else. She must have known that the wait for everything else was going to drive me crazy, or I'd drive her crazy knowing they're in the house. I would have waited but I defiantly do appreciate her giving them to me now.

I had also thrown a mini Dozier in pink, to support breast cancer, onto my wish list so we'd have matching folders. She's still not sure where she is going to use it but I keep telling her that she'll be surprised how often she uses it.

As you can see I received the BK13 a and lansky blade medic for my sheath. Just need some fire steel to finish my sheath's kit. The BK14 and Dozier were just to help start/add to my Kabar/Becker collection/addiction.

My BK14 all dressed up ready for the woods. I don't plan on naming these guys yet. I figure I'll wait until the blades name themselves situationally.

I plan on doing a try stick test to compare these to my BK4.

Anyone care to speculate on a winner? I would but it's like choosing a favorite child.

Now to make a belt loop for the 14 and we're all set. For now.

W.M.


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[Ethan Becker]

Hey WM....

Love to see your posts on your progress..... A quick note on Hop Hornbeam..... If you harvest a log or two be sure to paint the ends as soon as possible with either latex paint or a dilute glue and water mix as it checks almost as badly as beech..... I have not heard of HH being used as bow stock but, I find it interesting..... I have mostly used it only for staffs and an occasional walking stick..... It is frequently referred to here as muscle wood and I love the texture and form of it's bark.....

All best...

Ethan

 

[Warriors Meadow]

Hey WM....

Love to see your posts on your progress..... A quick note on Hop Hornbeam..... If you harvest a log or two be sure to paint the ends as soon as possible with either latex paint or a dilute glue and water mix as it checks almost as badly as beech..... I have not heard of HH being used as bow stock but, I find it interesting..... I have mostly used it only for staffs and an occasional walking stick..... It is frequently referred to here as muscle wood and I love the texture and form of it's bark.....

All best...

Ethan

I've been looking forward to a comment from you since I started this thread. I'll make sure to paint the ends. I've also heard of HHB referred to as ironwood and I'm looking forward to using my BK4 to make myself and family a bow. I'm so glad I purchased this knife for this project. Once I master my bows I can make one for you if your interested.

Thanks for making such a wonderful and well thought out knife/knives. I recommend your knives all the time to people.

BTW I couldn't find the Becker folder when I ordered my 13 & 14. You also owe me a bandage or two. Wow are these two sharp.

W. M.

P. S. It's ridiculous how excited I'm right now that you comemented on my post. Made my night here at work.

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[Warriors Meadow]

Good morning everyone,

I finally managed to get back to my father in law's hunting property. Despite the 35+ weather with humidity I soldier on and cut down a tree for my bow stave.

Our conversation before we left.

F. I. L. - do you need an axe?
Me - No
F. I. L. - do you want a saw?
Me - No thanks I'll use my knife
F. I. L. - *puzzled look* OK

The piece I cut is around 7' x 6"-8" which should give me about 2' of play to lay out my down design (still not 100% sure which one yet).

My thoughts on the process
1) both myself and my F. I. L. were thoroughly impressed by how well the BK4 did. I found smaller more accurate snap cuts worked the best.
2) we were also amazed at how sharp the blade was after. I still haven't sharpened it yet.
3) hop hornbeam is a lot harder and heavier than I ever could have imagined.
4)cutting low on the tree was not ergonomic what so ever. But had to be done as to not waste precious bow material.
5) half way through I decided to baton it and found that helped until the pressure of the falling tree took over pinching the blade. Next time I plan on batoning the majority of it. I figure I can baton wedges out.
6) cutting my stave off the fallen tree was 10x easier and faster.
7) the coating is wearing very nicely.
8) the stock grips are not too slippery and I never had any grip issues. I did find holding her at the end on pommel helped create lots of leverage for the snap cuts.
9) the dog was not helpful at all.
10) I love my machax and am so glad I found this forum and that someone recommend it to me.

The conversation after my piece was cut
F. I. L. - do you need help carrying that
Me - No thanks
F. I. L. - are you sure
Me - yes but thanks for the offer. The whole plan is to build this bow just myself and one knife.

He said he was thoroughly impressed by my perseverance and could see where my son gets his determination from as I carried my stave out of the woods, over the creek up the hill by the meadow only stopping to pick up my hydration pack and to have a quick drink. I even passed the dog up the hill.

Now comes the hard part. I've sealed the ends and need to wait for it to season. I figure I'll leave it till late spring (6 months or so). We also have our eye on a nice eastern red cedar.

While my stave is seasoning I'm looking for other projects.

Any suggestions?

My only concern now is that I've left my stave in one piece. Does any know if I need to split it in half now or once it's dry? I know I can wait till it's seasoned to debark it. I've also posted this question in a bow building forum and I'll let everyone know what they think as well.

I hope everyone is having a great summer

Thanks,
W.M.

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[coote]

I've made a lot of bows. All of them were crude by glossy magazine standards and by far the majority broke very early in their lives. But I had some pleasing results with my surviving bows.

If you want to have a maximum draw, I think a good style of bow to make from 'unproven wood' is one that bends through the handle and that is close to being as tall as the archer. This way there is more wood to share the load. It may not be as efficient a design as a shorter (more stressed) bow, but it should help to ensure that the bow has a decent life expectancy. I've adopted a shorter draw than I might have if I used a classical shooting pose. So with my draw of maybe 24 inches I can be more flexible with my shooting stance, I don't get slapped on the wrist by the bowstring (because I bend my bow-arm elbow) and it is easier to find shoots that are long enough to make arrows out of. And because my bow doesn't have to bend as far, I can make a shorter bow.

The Machax (or a BK9 or even a '7) should be an ideal bow-making tool if you want to take the 'one tool only' path. I've made successful bows using just a sharp hatchet. One tool I came to appreciate when making a lot of bows, was a four-inch angle grinder fitted with a rubber-backed emery disk. Dang that could remove wood quickly. Working with a blade is more satisfying though, and it makes less mess.

I had a home-made shaving horse that I used for a while, but I found that I still got good results without one. At one time I worked shifts in a security guardhouse at a large factory site. There wasn't much to do besides open the barrier arms and answer the phone. One day I took a stave and a hatchet with me and made good progress by placing a thick glossy magazine on the floor and resting my bow on it while I removed fine shavings with the hatchet.

Working slowly and thoughtfully is important. Many times I have removed too much wood and I ended up with a weak bow when I had originally intended to make a powerful one.

I don't know much about the types of trees/wood you may have available over there. A whole log may take a very long time to season, but you could end up with a fantastic bow stave from it. I generally would split logs immediately and rough out the bow stave while the timber is still 'green'. This may not be the best practice, but it speeds up the project. I've made reasonable bows from wood that has dried out by my woodstove in maybe two weeks to a month after cutting the stave. This may not be ideal according to some experts, but it has worked well enough for me. Green wood can be hugely easier to work than seasoned wood. It is probably best if you don't bend your unseasoned stave.

I've found that splitting a log generally goes much better if I try to split it exactly down the center. I have thought that if I split it off-center I might get more staves, but when I've tried this the split has often wandered off to one side and made one of the staves too thin.

One of my best bows was made from a fairly straight sapling that was no more than two inches in diameter.

Here is my antique hatchet:

Here's my crude shaving horse made from a plank of lumber. I sat on a round of firewood to operate it. My foot pressed against the 'pedal' which caused the stave to be clamped against the edge of the plank (the pedal-operated lever pivots on a bolt that goes through the plank). This was a helpful way to hold a stave when using a drawknife. Next time I make a bow, I won't bother using a shaving horse.

With a smallish log, I'd be inclined to split it by batoning that Machax down through the middle from one end. I used to use an old slasher blade for this purpose (you might call it a brush hook blade). I only ever used a club made from a log to do the batoning... I'd never use a steel hammer. You may prefer to start a split with a blade, then drive small wedges into the split. I'd personally prefer to split the fresh, green log. I'd follow Ethan's advice and seal the end grain of green staves with PVA glue or water-based paint. I'm not sure how much difference this might make in every case, but it is something I've generally done. It can't hurt.

 

[coote]

PS: I wrote a book called 'Ancient Skills' which includes a section on how I might make a typical bow and arrows. I'd be happy to send you a PDF copy of it if you want to give me your email address. There is plenty of advice available on the 'net though.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Just a couple of quick comments as I am heading to bed. First of all, to Coote about "unproven wood". Hop-hornbeam (Ostrya virginiana) is a commonly used bow wood here, with great results. In fact you might remember Marc St. Louis from Paleo Planet who, IIRC, used a lot of Hop-hornbeam. In fact, once again, IIRC, he's written a few articles in Primitive Archer about bows made from Hop-hornbeam. I'll try to find the articles when I get some time. My friends and I have all used Hop-hornbeam (not to be confused with another tree called American Hornbeam - Carpinus caroliniana - AKA Blue Beech, Musclewood, because of its fluted trunk, and Ironwood) with excellent results. BTW. according to John Farrar (author of Trees in Canada), Hop-hornbeam is Canada's densest wood.

As far as the Machax goes, I used my Cinci machax for all the work on my bow and 2/3 (second one needs final tillering) up to tillering and it performed admirably, much better than the hatchet and machete that I tried to use initially.

And, Warriors Meadow, Smokey Hollow is a beautiful area and probably it wouldn't have been a good place to cut down a stave - too much human traffic and a lot of the trail passes through private property, whose owners have given permission for the Bruce Trail to pass. And, lastly, take Coote up on his offer of his ebook.

Doc

 

[coote]

Doc !!!!!

 

[Warriors Meadow]

Hello again everyone,

Thank you guys so much for all of the information. I really appreciate it and will definitely take these tips into consideration. I did seal the ends with paint but unfortunately I won't be able to make it back out to the in laws place anytime soon to split it. I know it'll take longer to dry but hopefully it'll prevent any cracks or checking.

Don't worry as good as the hickory looked good I left it alone. The tree I chopped down was on private land and there is lots more to be had. I may even see if I can plant a row or two of hickory for future use.

Thanks for offer on that book. I'll definitely shoot my email over to you.

Even thou I haven't personal met anyone on here it does feel like I've met and made a few new friends. It shows a lot about a person who takes the time out of their busy lives to reply to a total stranger.

I hope to share these values with my kids and help them learn and grow with nature as their classroom.

Thanks everyone who have helped me along the way to completing my quest. I am the Squire to you Knight's.

W.M. Squire!

Now if the man himself only made a sword. Hmmmm the Becker Excalibur.

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