Machetes Versus Billhooks

Joined
Jan 3, 2001
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What are the pro's and con's, and do you guys in the States use the billhook much? Is the billhook as viable a tool for survival as a machete, and what about as a defence weapon? they were used in the middle ages as polearms. Anyone got a CQC billhook
:D

sbillhooksml1.jpg
 
Wow, Jack, that is one devastating billhook!:eek: Mine was sold to me by Kellam's and made in Finland. I use mine at least once a week in the yard to remove pesky vines and large weeds which encroach upon MY territory. I have taken it camping and it proved as useful for splitting wood for the fire, removing brush from the campsite, digging holes for the fire and other chores. It is one of the most versitile tools I own. Between it and my Cold Steel shovel I sometimes have trouble deciding which to take (unless of course I persuade my wife to carry one or the other ;) ).

As to CQC, I certainly wouldn't want to face one up close and personal. It as all the attributes of a tomahawk as a hand weapon (without the throwing potential) with a longer cutting edge. The hook itself will help move your target around, bring them to you, or pull them down, while cutting the whole (or is it "hole" :D :D ) time. Make sure you attach a lanyard and you have a useful tool which can't be lost.
 
From my readings the Kellam Bill Hook seems to be an excellent and powerful tool.

But, as a "one tool" survival tool, I would not carry it, because of the lack of a tip. Though, if you are looking at it as a part of spectrum of a couple of tools, then I imagine it would be a reaonable if not brilliant choice.
 
Billhooks are a woodsman's tool to cut wood. Short, stout and heavy to limb out branches and debark logs. You wouldn't want to carry one for extended periods as they are heavy; thats what mules are for. Weld on a spike and add a longer shaft and you have a Swiss mercenary knight cleaver. They are tough and easy to use as their heft does the work. They will limb out half a forest without undue wear as they are built to do so. I don't have mine overly keen, if anything on the dull side, though they will take a sharp edge. They will cleave off a finger or hand without mercy. Good tools for work, which put hunting knives in their place. Better than a hand axe and safer.

I've noticed two weights, one for the forest and one for the garden. These are old timer ones. The lighter ones are really nice to work with. Good carbon steel. Modern ones don't have the same feel, or maybe they just need to be used for fifty years or so.

Machete's are for soft foliage and we bust them up trying to make them wood choppers. Use a machete for prolonged wood clearance and you'll destroy it in no time; and I don't care who makes it. Though they might last long enough for you to survive until help arrives. They need to be long and light to give good reach above the head. You can travel with them. They are clearance tools not wood working tools.

Its tools for the job really.
 
As Greenjacket noted, a machete is intended for a very different use than a billhook. However a parang is made for the same kind of use. A parang is a better overall cutter and much more versatile. However they are much more dangerous to use than billhooks. They also cost much more (unless you can get a traditional one), and of course they don't have replaceable blades.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, post some links to what you think is a best example of your kind of parang please. Just interested, as my idea of a parang is probably much more machete/lighter than yours. Thanks.
 
Parangs are basically a step up from a machete and the two blades blend into one another at the extremes. A heavy duty machete and light use parang are very similar. For example Newt Livesays RCM is a 3/16" fully flat ground 12" blade, it is a bit on the thick side for a machete, but on the light side for a Parang.

Anyway, traditional parangs meant for wood cutting are around 1/4" thick with a sabre convex grind about 3/4 - 4/5 of the blade width, there is no distinct edge bevel. There is also an additional convex grind that goes up towards the spine to increase penetration on deep cuts (soft vegetation). Basically the blade has teardropped shape.

They are usually forged from simple steels, medium carbon and low alloy. They are usually not quenched and tempered but just left to air cool. They are much softer than what is common discussion on the forums, but they have a much higher impact toughness and ductility.

They are sharpened usually once a week. This is a honing along the full primary grind to a highly polished edge using a fine hone. Over time the whole blade thins out and gets delegated to lighter use. The blade length for serious work is usually a minimum of two feet, but they do get slightly longer and vastly shorter for utility / hunting work, 12" or so for the latter.

-Cliff
 
Cliff: Interesting information on the steel in the parangs. Over the last 10 years I've evolved a similar philosophy on making tomahawks and other impact-type tools. I use a steel which is only 50 points carbon, but the joker in the deck is a high vanadium content which promotes good edge retention while keeping the steel soft enough to "roll" instead of crack or chip when it hits the wrong stuff. One customer used a Utility for 2 years splitting kindling without sharpening, and others have cut oak trees and brought the edge back with just leather honing. When you do hit a rock it is fairly simple to use a smooth steel and stones or 320 grit abrasive to take out the small dimple - no big chip to grind out like a 62RC knife blade. The sharpening process you describe for the parangs is remarkably similar, probably due to their resistance to major edge damage in heavy use.
Billhooks and machetes are both brush-clearing tools. The billhook is better for heavier work due to the more massive blade. Neither can compete with a hawk for really heavy chopping and other camp uses like pounding stakes (hammer-polled hawk) on a weight-for-weight basis. The hawk focuses its weight on a narrower cutting edge and thus works better for heavy cutting. It is harder to use than a billhook or machete for cutting small brush exactly because of the narrower blade. Each tool has a purpose for which it was intended. I have a machete with a Toledo steel blade made from an old cutlass in Puerto Rico which has cleared a tremendous amount of brush, but I don't use it for cutting down trees.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
That's very intertesing about the parang Cliff. I thought the primary distinction between machete and parang was blade shape, but I didn't know about the parang's thickness. A 2' blade 1/4" thick must be pretty heavy indeed.
 
Matthew, many traditional tools can vasy significantly depending on location. Most of what I know about parangs is from one traditional maker, I don't doubt that the style could vary significantly from the description I gave above. In regards to length, yes, there is usually a distal taper so it is not as forward heavy as you might think, but certainly requires far more wrist effort than a machete, hence the usual difference in grip (full) as well as chopping stroke (arm more so than wrist driven).


Two Hawks, yes the full convex grind of the parangs will make the edge very durable, both because of shear cross section and as well the inherent high durability of the profile. In regards to steels have you ever tried any of the high shock resistant steels? It is possible for some steels to be very hard and still have an extreme level of impact toughness. S7 for example has a charpy c-notch toughness of 127 ft.lbs at 57 RC. The higher RC should reduce edge damage from compaction and may possibly allow a thinner edge geometry.

-Cliff
 
Dear Cliff - Both parangs and axes use the convex grind because it puts the most "beef" behind the cutting edge which still permits a very razor sharp edge. An additional advantage is that it is very easy for the average user to re-sharpen. I prefer it for knives as well.
As to alloys, I am very happy with the 6150 that I have used for the last several years. "Field tests" by customers who have been using the hawks in a lot of environments have demonstrated the benefits of the alloy first recommended by my metallurgist. It seems to strike the ideal balance between toughness and edge-holding (for an axe, not a knife) and I do use a very sharp edge. In addition to chopping wood and bone, it is suitable for skinning, butchering, and shaving - they don't go in the box until they peel some hair off my arm.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
Two Hawks, yes the convex grind does allow a thicker edge at the same level of cutting ability because of the sweep of the "shoulders", and as well I agree about the ease of sharpening. For large knives like parangs it has other advantages as well, due to the gradual curvature it has a much higher shock resistance when it comes to extreme side impacts (this is more weapon related). As well the lower drag profile allows for much greater deep cutting ability without excessive binding. This is why there is an additional upper taper on Parangs. You don't need this on an axe as you don't get penetration to that depth with an axe head.

they don't go in the box until they peel some hair off my arm

That is nice to hear. Highly polished edges are the optimum finish for wood working both in regards to push cutting ability, edge retention and overall durability.

-Cliff
 
Dear Cliff,
We're obviously on the same wavelength where it comes to making heavy-duty edged tools that do the job for the user. Ain't it nice what happens when you finish-hone a properly shaped edge on leather?
Going back to the original billhooks/machetes ... the illustrated billhook (short, one-hand version rather than the medieval polearm) was issued to sappers (engineers) in our Army from the revolution through the Civil War as a "Fascine Knife." It was intended for cutting materials for "Fascines" which were the sharpened small-diameter poles used as an antipersonnel measure in hasty field fortifications. The 1700's version of concertina wire.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
Well I'm learning some interesting stuff on this thread, and it's good to get all your reactions to an edged tool that has been around for centuries. Now I have another question I'd love to know the answer to, and that is, what is the actual "hook" of the billhook used for? I can't really see why you need a hook, wouldn't a flat edge do as well? does the hook draw the work into the blade?
does it aid cutting in some way, What does it do? Anybody know?
 
Two Hawks, interesting historical perspective.

Jackknife, similar but more extensive curvature can been seen on a Sickle :

http://www.lwfleamarket.com/images/Farm/Farm_360C_HndSklRidgBld_75.jpg

or scythe :

http://www.scythesupply.com/Images/Marugg_gb24.jpg

or a Hawk-Bill :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/blackwood_hawk.jpg

Yes, the curvature greatly enhances the slicing ability of the blade. On some Bill Hooks (the heavier ones) it can also be used for digging and weeding, it will allow a much quicker sodding for example than a straight blade.

On a Bill-Hook which is often used for very heavy work, some tops are actually rounded :

http://www.kellamknives.com/catalog/images/sportsmans_line_2.jpg

for reasons of durability. The latter Bill-Hook is moved away from light hedge wood and intended for much heavier wood work.

The hook can also be used for light limbing purposes (snap pulls / pushes) so as to allow your wrist to be at a much more stable position during a cut.

-Cliff
 
The Billhook was a woodsman's tool for charcoal making (fuel and iron works), whicker fencing and basket making. The hook is just the thing for harvesting hasel sticks and rushes. They're not bad at debarking and thatching either. And then there is kindling.

Suited European forestry, but exported everywhere. There are quite a few local variations in weight and format. Easily converted to a anti tank, knight, weapon. A real yeoman multitool.

I sometimes think we think we invented the wheel, when its been around for ages. We have forgotten an awful lot of stuff since we have gone mechanised. Our forefathers could teach us a thing or two; they were no fools.
 
Dear Greenjacket,
Many "modern improvements" are NOT!
Dear Jacknife,
Reference the blade shape: The fascine knife (or billhook, if you prefer) is designed for "pull-it-toward-you" cuts of primarily small diameter saplings and such. The reverse curve of the blade facilitates this greatly and makes it an effective tool for this purpose. There was an article on the reverse-curve blade (for smaller knives) in BLADE magazine a while back, but I do not remember the specific issue.
The pictured knife, however, is not a short-handled copy of the "bill" used by infantry in early armies. The referenced polearm had a much more pronounced hook (designed for unhorsing knights) as well as other cutting edges. Good illustrations of bills, partisans, spiedos, and halberds can be found in "The Martial Arts of Medieval Europe" by Sydney Anglo (Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 2000) esp. on pages 160 through 163. The use of polearms by disciplined infantry (eg., the Flemish and Swiss) were instrumental in the demise of mounted chivalry (heavy cavalry) as an effective battlefield force, and were probably the most significant element in the defeat of Edward II by the Scots under Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn in 1314.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
In the Ozark mountains, where there were many German settlers, we still use a very large billhook we call a 'Kaiser knife'...altho some folks call it a slingblade (yep, just like in the movie) The billhook is 16-18" long, ~ 5" wide and mounted on a handle like a long double-bladed ax handle, the whole tool is about 5 feet long. Useful for chopping wild rose and saplings.

As mentioned above, this design is VERY old...next Easter when you're watching The Ten Commandments note that one of the 'swords' that Ramses carries is a billhook set with lapis lazuli. In the more recent medieval past, the forests usually 'belonged' to the gentry. In order to keep the forests clear enough for horsemen to ride thru on their hunts, the peasants were allowed to glean firewood by cutting smaller branches with their billhooks-not with an ax-and by pulling down deadwood from overhead with their shepherds crooks. From the old decrees allowing them to 'gather all they could' in this fashion we get the term 'by hook or by crook'.
 
Dear Texascarl,
Just found a notice on my email that this thread on a somewhat obscure and very unappreciated tool had been resurrected. GOOD!
What you described, though the handle may be a bit longer than the originals, is in fact the fascine knife used by "sappers" in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, which was a direct descendant of the European forester's tool to which you refer.
It is really good to see someone else on the Forum who is both interested and educated in the history of traditional edged tools which often work a lot better than their modern replacements.
As my health has been pretty putrid I don't get to contribute as often as I should, and it is really heartening to see that younger and healthier folks are carrying on the battle.
Best regards,
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
 
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