MAD DOG - My own quick test

A

Arnistador

Joined
Oct 14, 1998
Messages
109
Okay, all other issues aside, I had to check out this edge chipping issue for myself. I am the first to admit that I have a vested interest in the results of this test; there is nothing I can do about that now.

What I wanted to do was do a quick test to see if current production ATAKs suffer from this edge chipping issue. Now I know that photos prove nothing as I could have done the chopping with my 21" Sirupati from HI, my Kabar, or my friend's Busse Battle Mistress, or whatever, so you'll have to take my word for it. Remember though, my credibility is on the line, and without that, I might as well close up my shop and sell Beanie Babies as my law enforcement/military customers will eventually find out and expose me. So here it is.

What I did was first take a couple pictures of my ATAK beforehand. My ATAK was made by Kevin in mid 1998, and given to me at SOF in return for some work I had done for Kevin. It was an over-run of sterile knives that some spook group ordered or what not, so it has no Mad Dog insignia, but I got it from MD himself so there is no question as to where it came from.

Notice that in subsequent pictures, you can see the hard chrome is a different color and texture; the ricasso area does not have a nearly straight vertical plunge but a much more gradual diagonal transition.

Here is a photo of the original edge before chopping. Sorry it is a little fuzzy, but it was dark and I have no tripod so I had to rely on a not-so-steady hand along with a slow shutter speed. BTW, I rebevelled my knife to a much more aggressive angle than it came with. The factory bevel was somewhere around 27 degrees while I have put around a 20 degree bevel on mine, with a high 2000 grit polish. So, if anything, my rebevelling has made the edge that much more fragile and prone to chipping.

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakedge1.jpg">
atakedge1sm.jpg
</a>

The following three pictures are of three differing stages of chopping through a pine 2x4 that was left over from building the reloading bench that I did all the chopping on. I didn't have a vise or any apparatus to hold the 2x4, so I had to pin it in my left hand while I chopped with my right (scary.) While I have trained for many years in knife combat, it is still not a comfortable feeling to have a live blade chopping so close to your own flesh.

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakchop1.jpg">
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</a>

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakchop2.jpg">
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<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakchop3.jpg">
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Notice the edge on all the photos. Though I pryed (pried?) Cliff Stamp style (laterally) on the wood at various times to try to stress the edge, I could only get wood to snap, not the edge. (Aside: I don't have fear of breaking this MD; since I have a personal friendship with Kevin, I know for a fact he would replace it even if I took it to a bandsaw.)

Running my fingernail against the edge only revealed that the edge was as smooth as it was to begin with.

Keep in mind that the style of ATAK that Sparky and Mr. Turber tested was a few generations old, and while I don't know enough about Mad Dog lineage to say exactly how many years, to me it is at LEAST 3, and very possible the 7-9 years that my partner Bill estimated. Designs have changed, and the current ATAK line is very robust and has a heavier blade than the earlier ATAKs. Here is the profile of the spine:

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakspine.jpg">
atakspinesm.jpg
</a>

This blade is very well suited for chopping, and I surmise it'd be easier to lay in more force in chopping if one didn't have to worry about missing the mark and severing one's own limb.
smile.gif


After the wood was starting to split and could no long endure chopping without splitting completely on it's longitudinal axis, I stopped to see if my ATAK would still shave. Here are the results:

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakshave1.jpg">
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<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakshave2.jpg">
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<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/atakshave3.jpg">
atakshave3sm.jpg
</a>

I didn't think that this knife would shave after twisting it in wood and ostensibly misaligning the aggressive edge. In fact, I am still happy enough with this edge that I didn't even bother resharpening it. I may run it on a strop or polishing tape on my Apex before re-Tuf-Clothing it and putting it back in my go bag.

This is what my knife looked like after the quick ad hoc "test" of it's chopping abilities:

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/ataktest/final.jpg">
finalsm.jpg
</a>

Now, I'm sure I will come under attack (just like Mike and Spark did) for being biased, and let me just say that I admit to the bias. However, like Mike and Spark, I will also be glad to do this test again with my un-touched-up ATAK2 in front of as many people who would like to show up at SHOT show or wherever.

You can usually find me most weeknights either at West Coast Academy in Fountain Valley, or the Inosanto Academy in Guru's "instructor" class.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of the issues of edge chipping in CURRENT model ATAKs and ATAK2s.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

[This message has been edited by Arnistador (edited 05 November 1999).]
 
Well, I'm willing to take this at face value. I'm looking forward to seeing the difference between the version we have and the newer models. From what Tim tells me, their balance is more point heavy instead of neutral so that's certainly going to be a factor. I'm certain that the ergo's are going to still be excellent since that's a given with any MD.

We'll see what happens with the ones we're getting. We'll be using spruce 2x4's (they are a little harder), and will do the other tests as well, as previously stated.

Thanks for doing your own tests, Tim.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 05 November 1999).]
 
Spark and Mike,

I'm glad we (Bill and myself, on separate calls) had a chance to talk to you and Mike. Like I said before, most of this is ridiculousness on both sides. I'm glad we were able to come to a mutual understanding.

If I had spruce 2x4s, I would have used them. I will admit that I did FU the edge on my Mad Dog once, but that was when I was cracking a coconut, slipped and slammed the edge into a concrete block. 10 minutes on my EdgePro Apex and I was back in business with a restored razor edge. (BTW, thanks go to Ben from EdgePro, Joe Talmadge for his great Sharpening FAQ, and MD for his tutoring me on sharpening.)

Tim
 
While it was "only" pine in use, the fact that he radically re-profiled the edge in an aggressive fashion more or less makes up for it!

The edge as he described it should have been "worse case scenario" for producing a delicate edge.

And it still held.

KEWL!

Yo Tim: I'm not exactly a sharpening wiz; I can maintain the original bevels with a Sharpmaker but I'd *really* like an edge re-profiled like that one is, on my WSP1.

It's be worth it to me to have you do mine like that, especially if it's crazy-sharp! How much would that run me, if you're willing to do it?

Jim
 
Jim,

If you like, I will reprofile one for you at no charge. It takes a little bit of time and effort, but I enjoy it. Just keep us in mind the next time you have a Dog craving.

Oh, and I'm no sharpening wiz either, but the EdgePro Apex takes the tough part out of sharpening (holding a consistent angle.) With a little bit of practice, a rank amateur using the EdgePro can create better, more consistent bevels than a professional using freehand methods. This is because a variation of even 1 degree will affect edge perfomance, and the EdgePro mechanically holds the angles constant.

Anyway, send to our address at:

Street Smart Professional Equipment
27758 Santa Margarita Parkway Suite 370
Mission Viejo, CA 92691
949-888-1131

Oh, and if you could include either a UPS account number or whatever it costs to insure and send the knife back to you (don't know where in CA you are,) that'd be really cool.
Also, let me know the actual angle you'd like your knife reprofiled to, and if you'd like me to finish to 2000 or 4000 grit polish.

Best,

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Just 2 questions. Did you chop with the grain or across the grain of the wood?
Did your hand holding the wood take some of the shock of the chops, or did you have it resting on something so it was a solid hit?
 
DB,

For the test, I chopped against the grain as you saw in the picture.

I had no vise nor other way of locking the 2x4 down so I had to pin it against my loading table with my left hand. The 2x4 was supported by the table (it was custom built to be very secure so as to accomodate my Dillon RL550B without rocking) for most of the chops. As I neared the other side of the 2x4, I moved the chopping portion over the edge of my reloading bench as I was beginning to get worried that the ATAK would chop through the 2x4 and into my workbench. (I was hacking like a madman and was also increasingly worried I'd miss the 2x4 and hit my support hand or worse yet, ruin my reloading bench.)

During the hacking, I found that it was more comfortable to hack with a slightly loosened grip on the knife and allow the weight of the knife to do the work. A deathgrip on the knife did not aid in penetration and only wore my hand out more quickly and transferred more vibration into my arm.

So to answer your question, for most of the chopping, the wood was supported by the bench. For the last 10 or 20 chops, the wood was held over the edge of the table. Again, every now and again, after a particularly hard whack, I would laterally pry pieces free and apply stress to the edge. No damage.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment


[This message has been edited by Arnistador (edited 06 November 1999).]
 
It was fair. I'm looking at that edge in comparison to mine and no question, his is a lot more aggressive. That means "delicate", relatively speaking. For this edge to do what Tim did (and his reputation is impeccable) is impressive.

Jim
 
Wish I had a digi cam to take pics of me hacking a 2x w/ my MAKO earlier today,neighbors must of thought WTF. With the 20 deg. edge have you chopped bone? If I get the chance to pick up an ATAK I'll keep the steeper angle but I might consider 20 deg. for my MAKO. Great post Tim!

ARMLOK
 
In any testing situation, it is usually desirable to have a large sample size. With this test and Mike and Spark's test, we have a sample size of two. And that is actually not really the case as well, since the "samples" are not identical. In the world of science, sample size of two is doodly squat. Therefore, let's try not to let the results of either test loom too large in our thinking. Clearly we need some perspective here. In judging which knife to purchase, I think anecdotal evidence is as reasonably valid as a sample size of two.

I like the tests. I would like to see more of them but I can understand the problems with costs, though.

Given the small sample size, I'm surprised that people get so excited about the results. We all need to relax a bit. Let's enjoy the tests but keep an open mind to all evidence.

Many people were quick to claim bias in Mike and Spark's testing but now it seems clearly that they had an old MD clunker. In a sample size of 1, your chance of getting a clunker in anything is good.

In a valid test, enough experimental units (e.g. knives) have to be used so that variation within a group can be accounted for. For instance, if 5 knives out of 1000 fail a spine whack test we can have far more certainty that a knife is reliable than if 1 knife out of 2 fails a spine whack test. 1 out of 2 is not statistically exciting and there is no conclusion that we can truly make from a test like this. 5 out of 10 IS exciting. It is a far more powerful test because the sample size is much larger. Both have a failure rate of 50%. One COULD have been due to random chance, the other: unlikely.


------------------
Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe
 
Well said, Hoodoo. Of course, a sample size of even 1000 would be practically unfeasible, causing one to have to resort to statistical relevance as we reduce the sample size.

Oh the headache.
smile.gif


And even if someone's crazy enough to, say, collect 100 of MD's latest ATAKs to test, one has to wonder just how much this really means. It's one thing if it could cure cancer, but just to prove a point? Perhaps there's a conspiracy, but then, it's more likely that Mike's test knife was a rare case that slipped through QC. Eh....

I fully agree that the level of BS flying from both sides of the camp is far more than necessary, and frankly, it didn't have to come to this.

Arnistador, that was one of the finest reviews I've ever read on here. Good test. Great work.

$.02
 
I wouldn't go so far as to call the knife we had a clunker, it just apparrently wasn't a representative of the current production line. It could be anywhere from 3-9 years old, yet it still performed pretty well. It just wasn't a good chopper and the edge chipped. Tim tell's me that the newer ones are more tip heavy and are better choppers, and I believe him.

The question about whether the knife is stolen or not still needs to be answered, but since it could be anywhere from 3-9 years old, that's a lot of time for a bunch of knives to make it out. We'll see how that plays out.

Again, we'll see what happens when we get ahold of more.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Well one observation that Tim and I agree on is that the Mad Dog does not feel good in your hand while chopping.

The Mad Dog made you want to choke down on your grip past the first finger groove making it a definite non chopper.
Click to expand...
MAD DOG final thoughts. (Rank #4)
This knife is no chopper. It is pure fighter all the way. In a pinch it will do a nice job of small chopping chores but watch the edge as it chipped in a very similar manner to the Fallkniven. I liked the way this knife felt in my hand more than any other. Not during chopping but just holding it. You just wanted to slash something with it. Kevin must have the exact same size hands I do! The sheath is damn near identical to the Busse (or more appropriately the other way around) making it KICK ASS as well. If you have $355 bucks laying around and want a pure fighter then this is it!
Click to expand...

The reason the Mad Dog is not a chopper is simple. There is nothing to absorb the shock. Each time you whack at a piece of wood, nearly all of the shock is transfered directly though the handle and into your hand. I liken it to holding a electric tool which vibrates your hand. After a while you loose feeling and you do not want to use it anymore. Also Tim said he felt it was more comfrotable to loosen his grip. I did too. I actually wanted to chock down the grip past the finger notch to chop but that made my grip loose and therefor the chopping was much more difficult than witht he Busse or Cold Steel.

All of the other knives had less dense handle material.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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Well, I can increase the sample size by one Wild Thing about three years old. When I got it, it had a "combat" edge on it, over 40 degrees included. I put a fighter edge on it, under 40 degrees included, and chopped through two 2X4s to be sure I hadn't compromised the edge durability. It still shaved after the first one. I can't remember if it still shaved after the second one, but it wasn't very dull.

I have a similarly fine edge on my Lab Rat, and I have never chipped it at all.
 
Just a clarification on Mike's post:

Both quotes above were Mike's words, not mine.

I will agree that a softer material would dampen the shock to the user's hand during heavy chopping of hard material, though I think that a quality tactical glove (like a Damascus) would take the edge off of the vibration quite well.

For chopping of any sort, I prefer to use a slightly looser grip anyway as a tight grip tends to make the user try to draw through the target as opposed to using the weight of the blade to do the work.

I did not find choking down past the index finger groove to be necessary.

I will agree with Mike that a softer material like Kraton or whatever Busse uses would probably make heavy chopping more comfortable, though I did not find chopping with the Mad Dog to be that much of a problem.

Looking at the specs of the Recon Scout, I am not surprised that it did better than the Mad Dog in chopping as it has a thicker spine and is heavier overall.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
It would be very surprising if any knife chipped from chopping pine, no matter how cheap the knife. (Well, maybe if the knife were made in Pakistan.) The only purpose of chopping pine 2x4s in a knife test is to see how good it is at chopping -- how long it takes to chop through a 2x4, how much effort it takes, whether the handle is uncomfortable or hard to hold onto -- it's no test of edge brittleness.

Try it on some harder wood, whatever you have around. If you don't have any boards around go out in the woods and chop some brush or branches. Look for dead (seasoned) branches on trees with leaves rather than needles.

Testing on green bone would be meaningful, too. I probably wouldn't even test a knife on dry bone, though; that's very hard.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
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