MAD DOG Update #5 - Continued "test"

A

Arnistador

Joined
Oct 14, 1998
Messages
109
Since I still don't have any spruce (I will try and get some hardwood this week), I decided to chop another 2x4 sitting around in half (without touching up the edge after the first round with a 2x4). Here's the knife after chopping the first 2x4.

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/start.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/startsm.jpg" target=v></a>

Now I have come under some criticism regarding the type of wood being chopped, and I will be going to get some spruce or what not this week. As an aside, I have done the Strider Knives test on my ATAK2 when I got it by banging it hard on metal table legs to test edge holding and brittleness. No damage. I will do this again and take pictures when I get a chance.

Here are photos of various stages of chopping through pine 2x4, AND applying lateral pressure to try to twist and break the edge at the bottom of the "V".

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop1.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop1sm.jpg" target=v></a>

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop2.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop2sm.jpg" target=v></a>

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop3.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/chop3sm.jpg" target=v></a>

As you can see, there is still no sign of any damage, despite chopping as hard as I could and prying to try to twist the edge out of alignment and/or cause it to chip.

After chopping most of the way through the 2x4 (didn't want to piss off the neighbors with so much whacking), I went ahead and tested the edge. Still shaving sharp after hacking almost completely through two 2x4s.

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/shave.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/shavesm.jpg" target=v></a>

So, just for sh*ts and giggles, I decided to slice some cardboard to see how edge holding was after heavy hacking. I had a box that my case of 230gr FMJ 45ACP bullets come in, the heavy cardboard that also has glue in it to hold the overlapping sides together in order to keep the contents from ripping the box apart (that little box carries almost 70 lbs of cargo.)

To give the ATAK a little boost, I simulated field conditions and gave the edge a quick strop against my pant leg with five or six strokes on my Levi's careful not to sever my femoral artery. Then I began slicing.

<img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/boxtype.jpg" target=v>

<img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/boxsm.jpg" target=v>

The ATAK2 sliced right through and without too much effort, turned half the box into little strips:

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/halfbox.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/halfboxsm.jpg" target=v></a>

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/pieces.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/piecessm.jpg" target=v></a>
It wasn't long until I was left with not much more than a pile of strips and some cardboard box left. Cutting through the gooey glue was a pain and my left hand was getting tired from holding the cardboard straight so I could get a good cutting angle with the knife.

It was about this time that I decided to try to shave again after making confetti of the fairly thick cardboard box.

<img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/hair.jpg" target=v>

As you can see, the edge was not quite hair popping sharp, but it was still shaving some hair and was by any measure a very serviceable edge.

Was this a "scientific" test; not by any measurable standards. Again, I will test the edge chipping issue by hacking into some steel targets and let you know the results. I've done it before with this knife, even with the aggressive edge, without any problems with chipping. I'll just photo-document it this time.

<a href="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/final.jpg"><img src="http://bohica.katn.org/streetpro/md/test2/finalsm.jpg" target=v></a>

All in all, I have to say that this edge chipping issue is blown way out of proportion. My edge is bevelled to just under 20 degrees, by no means a chopping angle, and still performed exceptionally.

Bias notice still applies (yes I am biased) but I will be happy to reperform these tests in front of witnesses.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

PS. Mike, if we really want to be fair about this, send me a piece of the same spruce that you used in your testing and I will use in in a follow up chopping evaluation.



[This message has been edited by Arnistador (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
This is cool and all, but we really need to do this at a knife show...have a bunch of people bring their critters and hack like hell
smile.gif
. That'll get us the "sample data" we really need.

Kevin taught an ATAK chopping technique at K'Nugen1 whereby you open up the "trigger finger" completely and let the grip "slip around in your palm"...you get more blade motion going than you do wrist motion, and blade speed rises versus just "stiff-gripping". The relative smoothness of the ATAK grip allows this trickery.

Jim
 
Thanks for the hard work, Arnistador. The ATAK appears to be a very good knife. I'm personally not concerned with the quality of the knife. What does concern me though, is the response by the maker to percieved problems with the knife.

A couple of days ago I was reading an old thread concerning a review of the Spyderco Military. Nemo posted that the Military's tip had broken off during testing. What was Sal Glesser's (president of Spyderco) response to this? Did he claim that the test was unscientific? Did he accuse the testers of being biased? Did he say that the knife which was tested was not a real Spyderco? Of course not. He apologized and said that the knife could be returned. He went on to explain that he thought the blade was too hard for the steel used. Future versions of the military had a lower RC to correct the problem.

I'm certainly not trying to pit Spyderco against MAD DOG. I'm simply showing an example of a maker that stands behind his product. When you say that your knife is not your knife, you are not standing behind your product; you are claiming that your product is not your product.

I buy something almost every day. I'm a consumer that has purchased many products, and I know when a producer is pulling my chain. So do you.
 
So now Mike allows someone else to continue posting MAD DOG Update # n and let the unresolved issue faded out in the wind ?
smile.gif


I couldn't write it better than Cerulean above. It's not specific to knives, but every consumer product. Remember Intel once had to call back a massive amount of early Pentium processors because of an error in only one floating point instruction. Even though most users may not use that instruction at all, it's their undeniable responsibility.

We didn't ask MD to call back all the ATAKs during the "leak" period, but at least that one that's apparently defective, according to the maker's claim, should be *unconditionally* replaced, IMO, instead of pressing all the hassles towards its owner/dealer/tester the way I see it.

Even you chop down a house with an ATAK on your test at this time, it won't be able to cover up this issue. The maker should show good faith to correct the problem or the millenium for a few of us are gonna be MD-free.

Thanks for the test, anyway.

Dew.


[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
IIRC, product recalls aren't always made because of every product showing a problem, but because of the potential of this problem showing up. Witness all the car recalls for minor issues - not every one of these cars would show the problem, but the changes were made to the whole line just on the off chance that one would.

Just because some knives don't chip doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with the ones that do that needs to be addressed with the whole line. Chips on MD knives isn't that uncommon, a seach on these forums should turn up posts from Aubrey, Cliff Stamp, and now us showing that they've personally experienced them.

Is it a big deal? No, I don't think so either. Unless huge portions are chipping away that is. If they are minor, you can touch them up with routine maintenance, etc.

But, they still happen. Whoopdedoo. No big suprise, it's 62 RC 01.

I don't think the chipping is the major issue anymore.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Thanks for the great camera work Tim! The results of your work are exactly in keeping with the performance I have experienced with my Mad Dog knives.

Not only that, but in all my communications with Kevin McClung, he has always been quite friendly and courteous, even though I am not a member of the law enforcement or military elite, or an elite of any kind for that matter, though I can type about as fast as anybody. He was courteous to me even when I was regularly posting that I thought his knives were too thick for civilians, courteous to the extent of making some thinner knives for non-elites like myself. I have absolute faith that in the highly unlikely event that I experience a quality problem with one of my knives, it will be dealt with in a friendly and professional manner to our mutual satisfaction.
 
As far as the service issue, I don't know what Kevin does with his other distributors or customers other than the rather silly events on the forums.

My experience, as a Mad Dog distributor, is that Kevin has taken care of us very well with product support. We in turn, take care of our customers and pride ourselves in providing quality products that we can be proud to stand behind.

At Street Smart, our mission is to provide the best available product for the mission in order to tip the odds in favor of the good guys, (and make enough to eat and take the wife out to dinner every now and then.)

If anyone has a problem with any of the products we carry, please call us and we will remedy it to the very best of our ability. You have my word on it.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Tim,

No disrespect as your testing is OK in my book but I was directly comparing knives and not just testing one. I had to chose a winner and you do not.

I would be willing to bet good money that if you compared as Mad Dog to a Busse or Cold Steel, and you are honest, you will come to a similar conclusion that I did in a chopping test and that is that the other two are better choppers.

Your carboard test is nohwere even close to mine. In testing you must use something as a standard. Call me and I will tell you a better way of doing that test or read my test again.

Thanks for your testing but we are still at ground zero.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
There's still one nagging issue. Have the RC tests come back yet? Because the one Arnistador have could have different tempering than the one Mike tested. Is it not possible, then, that Mike's admittedly defective MD could have chipped just the same. If anything Arnistador's test have proved that not ALL of MD's blades will chip, but no more or less.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that, for it may have fanned the flames.
 
Mike,

I agree that mine was not a comparison test at all, nor did I claim it to be. I agreed with you that likely, the Recon Scout was probably a better chopper due to it's thicker and heavier blade than the ATAK. I don't know what the Busse specs are offhand, but if it is also heavier than the ATAK, then it might be a better chopper as well. Fine. We agree here.

Secondly, the cardboard "test" was not meant to be scientific. In fact, I explicitly said so. It was not meant to be standardized either (as I don't have that much cardboard laying around, and the cardboard I had was inconsistent and had glue in between layers of much of it. It was only meant to demonstrate that the knife was still capable of slicing cleanly even after chopping almost completely through two 2x4s, even with the agressive <20 degree highly agressive edge profile.

If I had the time or inclination to set up a cardboard slicing apparatus like yours, that would prove to be a better test of MEASURED ability. However, mostly, I sliced up cardboard for sh*ts and giggles just because it was around.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Mike,

Just thought of this. I have a proposition for you. If you have any more Busse Basics, or if you have the used one still available, send it to me and I will do a measured chopping test against the ATAK2, after resharpening both of them.

If I have time to set up a measured cardboard cutting test, I will do that too (and likely confirm your slicing results and the admittedly intriguing abilities of INFI steel.)

If the Busse #9 performs better than the ATAK2, I will buy it from you if you will extend the courtesy of selling me a used knife a dealer/distributor cost. If the ATAK2 comes out on top, I will obviously have no need for the other knife and will ship it back to you.

Either way, you have my word that I will be as objective as humanly possible, and anyone in the Southern California area will be welcome to schedule a time and watch the evaluation.

I have no fear that some knife might be able to outperform the ATAK2 in specific roles (chopping and slicing, in this case). Knives all reflect a compromise of abilities; the maker must make this call when designing a knife and selecting materials. This is why there is so much room for custom knife makers.

I carry my ATAK2 daily in my go-bag, and have selected it for reasons that suit me: I can pry with it without fear of breakage; it is a decent chopper; it is an excellent single edged fighter; it has an ergonomically superior grip; it is low maintenance; it has great edge holding characteristics; it looks cool. All these I have demonstrated to myself in daily use since Soldier of Fortune show in 1998.

I have no fear of carrying knives other than Mad Dog. For example, I prefer my Himilayan Imports 21" Sirupati to a MD Tusk for chopping, historic, and financial reasons.

Anyway, if you'd like to take me up on my idea, let me know. If not, that's fine too.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Will do!

Hows that for a fast response. Just send me your snail mail address.

I will send you a #7 we have used around here. The edge is different than a MD so make sure you sharpen it correctly.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
Like Mike said, the edge on the Busse Combat Basics are different. They use a flat/ hollow grind combination (I believe) that the instructions tell you to only sharpen on the flat side.

We'll make sure to include a copy in the box.

Forgot to add this: Tim, go ahead and use the hell out of it. From what I've seen done with the Busse Combat Basic, it should handle anything and smile. Correction, the handle probably won't do well if you set it on fire, the Mad Dog has it there, but you should be able to chop, pry, slam, wham, beat and mistreat the blade without any significant problems.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
No problem. I plan to do so, and will photograph and document the event for those who won't or can't be present for the evaluation. I expect the Busse to perform as well as Mike's test, though I think my sample ATAK will do better than the one that was in Mike's comparison.

Looking forward to playing with the Busse #7.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Mike and Spark may boot me for bringing this thread back but what the hey.

So far I have heard Mike and Tim say the exact same thing: "The Mad Dog ATAK is a very good knife that is not as well suited to chopping as some other 7 inch knives"

I personally don't care if the Mad Dog Mike tested is the only Mad Dog to ever chip or even if it was a defective blade that was stolen and finished by someone else.

IMHO, if it was purchased as a Mad Dog from a reputable Mad Dog Dealer, Mad Dog should back it completely.

If it was stolen from his shop in a condition that it could be finished and sold to one of his dealers that is his bad not the customer's.

Are Mad Dog knives high quality knives? By all accounts including Mike's yes

Would I own a Mad Dog at this point? Probably not because I currently perceive the company being more dedicated to ego than to customers.

Does it matter? Probably not. Mad Dog seems to be doing fine with a large following, Blade Forums is an excellent site and I will continue buying knives that I like from Makers that I trust to back their products.

------------------
AKTI Member No. A000370
 
As far as backing up product, as a dealer, I look at it this way. The dealer/distributor represents the product line that he distributes. That's the purpose of having distributors. First of all, if there is a problem with the product, the customer should go to the dealer first and explain the issue. Then it is up to the dealer to make the customer happy and possibly take it up with the manufacturer.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
I didn't know about the weird grind on Busse knives. That's interesting. I guess it give the best of both worlds (flat vs. hollow grinds)?

I didn't think you could patent the angle/grind on a knife. I wonder if the patent application will be successful.
 
Spark :

[chipping]

Is it a big deal? No, I don't think so either.
Click to expand...

Chipping is a very big deal. It says that the blade material is not tough enough to handle the given stress. Cracks are forming and propogating through the material. Even if you sharpen out the chips you do not get the full extent of the damage which will only continue to get worse. Chips mean that the blade will have a very low fatigue life (at that type of work) due to crack propogation and that the blade will suffer gross failure with no warning if overstressed (ie. snap violently and go to pieces).

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top