Magnacut folders being "shorted" ?

[greater]

This is a matter for our resident metallurgy expert Joe X to research

 

[jstn]

Any further thoughts and pics would be appreciated. Hard to find much out there from people with that knife

I’ll try and upload some pics later, but my too are well built, and the axis lock is smooth. The real draw for me was the nice micarta scales, the deep hollow-ground Magnacut blade, and the axis lock. The blade stock is decently thick, but it gets down to a nice thin edge. The ergos are pretty neutral and would likely fit most any hand. Its a great all around knife. Any specific questions, just ask!

 

[DocJD]

move past

Size matters for utility as well .

"Tactical " knives were always primarily used for "support functions " not as weapons .

Except for precise work , almost every other cutting chore is easier, faster and more efficient with a larger blade .

And , nobody with any common sense has "moved past " the usefulness of a fighting knife as a last resort .

 

[DocJD]

it came from

...basic math and physics, as well as the experience from the entire history of human use of sharp tools /weapons .

 

[Chronovore]

My tactical folders fit in so nicely between my martial arts and my firearms…

And , nobody with any common sense has "moved past " the usefulness of a fighting knife as a last resort .

I get it if people like the tactical aesthetic but the reality is that folders have extremely limited value in both actual tactical operations and real defensive encounters. A big part of that is their level of effectiveness versus alternatives like guns and fixed blades. Setting aside any structural concerns about locks or having a joint, the main reason is just the number of steps and potential failure points between realizing a threat and having the tool ready to use. While some defensive encounters will allow the time and space for that process, lots will not.

This is the same sort of reasoning we see with guns and issues like whether or not to carry with one in the chamber, manual safeties, holster types, etc. Preparing for defensive encounters means betting on potential situations and trying to effectively cover as many of them as possible. Within that spectrum of probability, it's the encounters that happen quickly, by surprise, in situations where you already have a person, animal, or group thereof on top of you, you are already injured, your hands are slippery, you are on the ground, etc. where the extra steps can be a real problem. Given that and that there is an economy of time and action in an encounter, I'd much rather see people working on their empty-handed skills than trusting their defense to a folder as their primary defensive tool.

 

[DocJD]

I get it if people like the tactical aesthetic but the reality is that folders have extremely limited value in both actual tactical operations and real defensive encounters. A big part of that is their level of effectiveness versus alternatives like guns and fixed blades. Setting aside any structural concerns about locks or having a joint, the main reason is just the number of steps and potential failure points between realizing a threat and having the tool ready to use. While some defensive encounters will allow the time and space for that process, lots will not.

This is the same sort of reasoning we see with guns and issues like whether or not to carry with one in the chamber, manual safeties, holster types, etc. Preparing for defensive encounters means betting on potential situations and trying to effectively cover as many of them as possible. Within that spectrum of probability, it's the encounters that happen quickly, by surprise, in situations where you already have a person, animal, or group thereof on top of you, you are already injured, your hands are slippery, you are on the ground, etc. where the extra steps can be a real problem. Given that and that there is an economy of time and action in an encounter, I'd much rather see people working on their empty-handed skills than trusting their defense to a folder as their primary defensive tool.

We are badly wandering off topic into Prac/Tac .

I'll just guarantee you: I can wave any of my 5.5" + blade Cold Steel from either front pocket as fast as I can move my hands from waist high to ready . And I can make my first cut / block on the way .

That cut will just a effective as any from a similar OAL and weight knife . Probably more effective due to fully serrated blades, designed for this purpose .

Allowing your own personal limitations to underestimate others can have serious consequences .

 

[jbmonkey]

it's not just magnacut. many folders are heavily in the 3.25" blade and shorter length anymore.

 

[Chronovore]

Size matters for utility as well .

"Tactical " knives were always primarily used for "support functions " not as weapons .

Except for precise work , almost every other cutting chore is easier, faster and more efficient with a larger blade .

Depending on the task, a larger blade can certainly make some jobs easier. The earlier point I was making is that in my average personal EDC use and in such use for a lot of other people, 3.5" is usually plenty of blade for the sorts of tasks that regularly come up. I'm sure some people feel as well-served and without want at 3". Of course, that's not everyone and I'm betting there will always be some demand for larger folders. It's just the level of demand.

Efficiency is a different animal. Given that the larger folder has a greater EDC footprint (size and weight) and might not offer an appreciable increase in utility for a lot of people, it will be less efficient for those people. If a smaller, lighter knife that is easier to carry then handily accomplishes tasks that present themselves in a person's life; then the smaller knife is actually more efficient.

As for Magnacut, I seem to recall that it’s optimized for a fairly high hardness - up around 62+??

If/when I buy a Magnacut knife, I’d want the steel at roughly the optimized hardness, so probably any size folder would be fine but I’d want smaller/thinner in a fixed blade…

MagnaCut seems more optimized for a good balance of properties. The relatively high toughness on Larrin's rating chart is given at that higher hardness. That's a wonderful thing!

So while it can be a great choice for smaller folders, it also seems to be a good choice in larger fixed blades. So far, David Mary has been using it in larger fixed blades with good results.

 

[kafolarbear]

...basic math and physics, as well as the experience from the entire history of human use of sharp tools /weapons .

I would like to see the basic math and physics calculations you made that brought you to the conclusion that a knife with a thinner geometry would benefit less from a tougher steel than a sharpened prybar that would be near indestructible no matter what steel you used.

 

[scdub]

I get it if people like the tactical aesthetic but the reality is that folders have extremely limited value in both actual tactical operations and real defensive encounters.

I think we’d agree that a .22 caliber, two shot derringer also has “extremely limited value” in a fight, yeah? Or how about a tactical pen, or a roll of quarters?

So is your answer to simply leave these weapons at home because they aren’t the BEST weapons??

I don’t believe so. I like LAYERS of tacticool.

If I could legally carry a concealed fixed blade around town I would, however since I can’t, a “tactical folder” is always riding in my off-hand pocket across from my pistol. (And I’m also carrying a short OC kuboton and small flashlights).

Preparing for defensive encounters means betting on potential situations and trying to effectively cover as many of them as possible.

Exactly, that’s why carrying more than one weapon is important.

You’d better believe that if I lost/wasn’t able to carry my folder for some reason I’d immediately fill that empty pocket with my tactical roll of quarters.

 

[DocJD]

it's not just magnacut. many folders are heavily in the 3.25" blade and shorter length anymore.

Just another sign of the collapse/end times .

 

[DocJD]

I would like to see the basic math and physics calculations you made that brought you to the conclusion that a knife with a thinner geometry would benefit less from a tougher steel than a sharpened prybar that would be near indestructible no matter what steel you used.

No one is disputing that for same BL and OAL .

But overall tiny/thin blade knives are rarely intended for hard use .

 

[Chronovore]

We are badly wandering off topic into Prac/Tac .

I'll just guarantee you: I can wave any of my 5.5" + blade Cold Steel from either front pocket as fast as I can move my hands from waist high to ready . And I can make my first cut / block on the way .

That cut will just a effective as any from a similar OAL and weight knife . Probably more effective due to fully serrated blades, designed for this purpose .

Allowing your own personal limitations to underestimate others can have serious consequences .

Maybe so but it did come up. Given that this is ultimately a safety issue, I feel the same sort of duty on folders as defensive tools as I do in gun talks when people talk about carrying on an empty chamber.

The reasoning I shared against folders for defense applies to most types of folding knife and the overwhelming majority of folders in actual circulation. The Wave feature is interesting in that it was effectively designed as an answer to that. It seeks to hack the process chain central to the reasoning. It might not be a perfect answer, and I don't think it fully closes the gap versus a good defensive fixed blade, but it certainly seems to help.

 

[kafolarbear]

No one is disputing that for same BL and OAL .

But overall tiny/thin blade knives are rarely intended for hard use .

Sure but the point of my original post was that as soon as you start getting into that realm of 0.18"+ thick knives, it hardly matters what steel you use. 1095 is not a particularly tough steel but it gets that reputation because it is almost exclusively used in super thick knives. At the point you're working with damn near quarter inch thick slabs of steel, prioritizing steel toughness over all other attributes its pretty overkill IMO. I don't see what sort of hard use a knife could be going through short of brick chopping that would mess up a 0.2"+ thick knife in any modern steel with a decent heat treatment.

 

[MolokaiRider]

While it's not a folder, this thin and hard custom really exemplifies the benefits of Magnacut.

This thing separates materials like Moses separated the sea.

 

[Hyesouljah]

Been EDC’n this one and using it for all my cutting tasks for a few months now. MagnaCut at 62HRC. It’s done a ton of food prep, cut zip ties, boxes, etc and it’s still laser sharp. It’s a small 3in blade that’s incredibly TBE but this steel is just working great for me. I’ve had 20CV and M390 steel that has rolled and chipped doing far less than this tiny blade has handled

 

[anthony cheeseboro]

Protech makes the Runt in Magnacut and Hogue produces the bar lock models in Magnacut too.

 

[scdub]

Maybe so but it did come up. Given that this is ultimately a safety issue, I feel the same sort of duty on folders as defensive tools as I do in gun talks when people talk about carrying on an empty chamber.

The reasoning I shared against folders for defense applies to most types of folding knife and the overwhelming majority of folders in actual circulation. The Wave feature is interesting in that it was effectively designed as an answer to that. It seeks to hack the process chain central to the reasoning. It might not be a perfect answer, and I don't think it fully closes the gap versus a good defensive fixed blade, but it certainly seems to help.

Round in the chamber: check

Waves on folders: check

 

[brownshoe]

No one is disputing that for same BL and OAL .

But overall tiny/thin blade knives are rarely intended for hard use .

Matt Conable knife designer, founder of William Henry and Tom Brown, survival expert, would disagree. Conable and Brown collaborated and made the Tracker knife for Brown’s school with a 3” thin san mai hard ZDP189 core blade, button lock folder. Check out Dexter Gordan’s article https://trackertrail.com/publications/inthenews/WHK_Brown.pdf

I have one and I use it often and hard for at least 10 years. It’s a great knife to take the back out of a chicken.

 

[DocJD]

It’s a great knife to take the back out of a chicken.

I am greatly comforted !