Mainstream "Professional" Sharpening Businesses Routines Seem VERY Bad

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stoffi

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Jan 14, 2008
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I spent a couple of hours calling different sharpening businesses in Stockholm (Sweden), to find out what they would do to my knives if I would let them sharpen them. What I found out was nothing short of shocking.

They use a 120 grit high-speed belt (some supported, some not) and go to a felt-type belt with wax in it for a finishing polish. That's it and it supposedly takes about a minute for them to do it. The companies I called are considered the go-to companies for chefs and civilians alike. Prices are around 5-10 USD a pop. I asked if they did convex edges or v-edges and they hardly even understood what I was talking about. One company even thought hollow-ground was the same as convex. Basically, if you send them your CS Tanto, it'll get convexed, or v-edge sharpened, but they can't say for sure or at what angle.

If I've got an expensive Shun or Global knife, a Sebenza or something, I don't want them to grind the crap out of it for a whole minute and ruin the heat treat and shorten its life and appearance. I certainly don't want 120 grit lines on my knives. One of the companies said that you can't ruin a heat treat until it reaches 800°C (red hot), which obviously can't be true, since annealing is done from around 160°C and up. They also said that the heat disperses into the rest of the blade, so the edge can't get ruined. I don't believe this at all.

I was just amazed at how terrible the sharpening routine and know-how is among these top sharpening businesses. I realize that restaurants may not care too much for a polished edge, but come on: 120 grit and then a quick polish with a waxed felt-type belt and not even with leather?!

—Is this how most mainstream sharpening businesses do it in the rest of the world? I realize that there are many extraordinary master sharpeners out there who go through several grits and whatnot, so I'm not talking about them, just the mainstream ones which seem to make a living off of other peoples ignorance.
 
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One knife shop I've been to offered sharpening services. I was chatting with the owner for a bit and he showed me how he sharpens his knives. He uses a bench grinder with one wheel having a sandpaper strip adhered to the outside, probably 120 or 200 grit. Then he finished up on the other wheel, a paper wheel with, I believe, white compound. That, in theory, could make a nice working edge, if a bit toothy. However, as he took the edge to the paper wheel he raised the angle by a lot (in my opinion...it looked like he was at 30 or 40 degrees per side). I guess that will take the burr right off, but it has to round the edge. The finished knife had a rather deep looking (but highly polished) convex to the edge, and it would cut paper, but not impressively. However, it only took him about a minute and he charges less than $5 per knife. I feel I can get a much finer edge with my freehand techiques, but I would have to charge $30 to $50 (at least...I'm slow) per knife to make it worth my time.

His method probably works well enough for his customers, who may have never felt a hair-whittling edge. If he kept the edge angle lower on the paper wheel it would probably be a really good edge. I would not let him sharpen my knives, but then I feel like sharpening and maintaining one's own knives is a critical part of being a knife owner (or at least a "knife person"), so even if he could sharpen better than I could, I would still do it myself...it's a point of pride.
 
I highly respect those who have the drive to set up a business of their own, whatever it may be. But, it really does scare me, at times, in hearing about the lack of apparent knowledge in some corners of the 'professional' sharpening business. Even before I knew how to do it myself, I was still pretty leery of handing a favorite blade to a complete stranger for sharpening (and I've still never done it, to this day), even if they were operating in a 'professional' capacity. That's what has really driven me to figure out how to take care of my own edges. At least if I screw it up, I'll learn something from it for the next time. Beats the heck out of gambling on one stranger's work and living to regret it, and then making another gamble on another complete stranger.
 
As with any business, there are good and bad practices. Part of the problem with a lot of the bad ones, is that they often do not even realize their practices are bad. Your story seems to support this.

Specifically, for sharpening, you need to factor in what the mainstream patron is expecting. I am not suggesting that they do not care about their knives...I am suggesting that they expect to pay very little for the service. That said, many people on these forums seem to have skewed ideas of what a fantastic edge ought to cost to produce.

Most (if not all) people I know outside of these forums think a knife is "sharp" if they need to be careful not cut themselves with it. Seriously, beyond that, most people would have no idea what we are talking about with regard to grit, edge angle, geometry, micro bevels, or any of the other things we discuss....they simply know "sharp will cut you if you do watch'it, and dull wont". That said, few of these people would pay even 5 dollars to sharpen their largest kitchen knife.
 
Sad but true, non knife people havent seen a ''sharp'' edge that shaves,whitles hair so a knife that can easily cut bread is generally sharp for them.And most people scare from our sharp edges.
As Unit sad they also dont wanna pay that much money for sharpening service cus for that money they can buy their new chepo dolar kitchen or folding knife.
Also when i sharpen my mothers or friends knives generally they cut themself cus they practiced bad cutting habits from dull knives.
 
One time at a gun show I handed over a knife to a guy who had a grinder set up and for the low low price of 5$ I had a horrible edge. That memory of the fat old dude in a leather apron putting on an edge that was maybe as useful as my dull knife will last me a lifetime.

I think this is where knowledge is more important, at the point in my life when I handed my knife over, I had no clue how to sharpen, but I sure knew the guy did a horrible job. That was 12 years ago or so, and only in the last few years have I really gotten into sharpening.
 
Skimo, that is funny and sad at the same time.

I recall a friend going through a similar experience except he LOVED the results. The knife was sharp enough to tear a few hairs out of his arm and he thought it was amazing. The edge also was cooked and insanely thin. By "insanely", I mean that for a super steel it would have been too thin for 90% of the users, but for this mild steel machete that he bought at a hardware store it was beyond stupid. The blade was badly rolled and compressed by the end of the week and its only uses were cutting paper and cardboard around the house.

Truth told, there are guys out there that attend knife and gun shows that do some passable work...you just have to talk, listen, and watch. That said, if you know what to look for, why not just do the job yourself?
 
unit said:
Specifically, for sharpening, you need to factor in what the mainstream patron is expecting. I am not suggesting that they do not care about their knives...I am suggesting that they expect to pay very little for the service. That said, many people on these forums seem to have skewed ideas of what a fantastic edge ought to cost to produce.
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Yeah, most people don't understand that the edge on my cheap knives are more valuable than the knives themselves, which is why I don't let them use my gear. They can't replace my 12K-polished Mora or whatever even if they wanted to.

I understand what people are expecting from a sharpening service in general, but the results which you get from this type of service will shorten the life of the knife and also make it look worse than it did from the factory, which most people should notice, regardless of what they feel that the service is worth. However, they purchase chef's knives like Global, Porsche Design or Shun and then let these kind of businesses fool around with their hard-earned possessions. Knives like that deserve the service of people like Carter, Schwartz, Richard J and so on.

Either way, I was just curious about what the mainstream sharpening business looks like overseas.
 
I can only suggest that there are good and bad...but since the vast majority of sharpening patrons expect to pay little for the service, I would also expect the vast majority of sharpening service providers to produce accordingly.

Think about it this way...how many car dealerships can you go to that will sell you a car capable of going 200+ MPH? They exist, but they are a little tougher to find and that probably has a lot to do with the lack of patrons lining up to spend accordingly. There are guys out there that will consult with you to create a high performance edge (you named a few) but you'll rarely see them in your local shopping mall;)
 
What's said are true. If kitchen knives used in commercial restaurants cost about 2-5$ each, who will pay for 1$ sharpening?

Even medium range like Victorinox (which only hotels & 5 stars are the buyers), they cost in that range. Normal restaurants will go to Chinese/Taiwan made that cost 1-2$ each. That's why the other poll on sharpening has option of "use it untill it is dull, ten buy new one" ;)

Our skill on this forum is not meant for commercial sharpening I guess. More for collectors, I know lots of SAK collectors doesn't know how to sharpen. A 15$ knife might be worth spending 1-2$ on sharpening once in a while...

Down here I haven't found any professional sharpening service yet, some restaurants I frequent get their ware in house sharpened (depending on their people skill).
For household, there're travelling vendors offering service with 5" grinder wheel operated manually that will give you horrible thin hollow low grit flesh tearing edge. That's the idea of sharp for most.

When I started sharpening the family's kithen knives, I had to warn them to change the cutting habit. The knives are still washed & stacked with spoon, fork, etc. so the edge gets dinged and chipped sooner than later. That's the reality I have to accept.

Able to slice clean copier paper is not an achievement in this forum, but outside there, it's a jaw dropping feature :eek:
 
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unit said:
I can only suggest that there are good and bad...but since the vast majority of sharpening patrons expect to pay little for the service, I would also expect the vast majority of sharpening service providers to produce accordingly.

Think about it this way...how many car dealerships can you go to that will sell you a car capable of going 200+ MPH? They exist, but they are a little tougher to find and that probably has a lot to do with the lack of patrons lining up to spend accordingly. There are guys out there that will consult with you to create a high performance edge (you named a few) but you'll rarely see them in your local shopping mall;)
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I hear what you're saying man, I just think it's crazy how bad the standard sharpening establishments are.

Chris "Anagarika";10727300 said:
What's said are true. If kitchen knives used in commercial restaurants cost about 2-5$ each, who will pay for 1$ sharpening?

Even medium range like Victorinox (which only hotels & 5 stars are the buyers), they cost in that range. Normal restaurants will go to Chinese/Taiwan made that cost 1-2$ each. That's why the other poll on sharpening has option of "use it untill it is dull, ten buy new one" ;)

Our skill on this forum is not meant for commercial sharpening I guess. More for collectors, I know lots of SAK collectors doesn't know how to sharpen. A 15$ knife might be worth spending 1-2$ on sharpening once in a while...
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Not all restaurants use cheap knives. Hell, I know of several restaurants which use high-end cutlery -- especially sushi-joints; although, I do get your point. I just think it's a waste on such fine knives to have to go to the butcher for resharpening.
 
Ah, sushi joints with Japanese chef will sharpen theirs in house ;)

Missed thr point
You are right, it's a waste of good knife being butchered like that. Is there a solution that's commercially viable as well?
 
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To answer the OP, no. At least, not that I have seen. I have been several Bass Pro Shops and Cabales. Each are very big stores. Two stories. Inside you can find a boat dealership, lots of guns, and lots of knives. Each store does knife sharpening. It's a one or sometimes two step process that I have seen at most.
Step one: Hold knife with edge facing up to the wheel spiny thingy. Let it whirl around and create sparks while moving the edge back and forth. Do this for about thirty seconds.
Step two: Hand knife back to customer.
If he is dissatisfied, go ahead and use the large diamond stone. But remind him that the grinding wheel is what really gets it sharp. But if insist...
Some Petro/Travel Centers of America (AKA Truck Stops) also have knife shops setup inside. Most of them offer knife sharpening. The guy working behind the counter likely rents the space out and owns the shop, and they are usually nice people. When I have seen them sharpen knives, it is with two wheels. Surprisingly better than what you would receive at the other stores. You may be able to find good knife sharpening if you are lucky to have someone in your area. I know of a couple of guys in my area. One for knives, the other for scissors and the like.
 
I'm not saying that they are bad people, it's just business. But, this mainly works because the customers don't have our knowledge. I've read a few stories on the net about how people have turned in their hunting knives and so on and been really disappointed with the results. I think one guy even tried to sue one company for completely ruining his blade! At least, that's what it sounded like in the thread.

The average kitchen-knife-user however, seems to praise these types of companies; probably because they're impressed with the price and time-frame, but don't know what they really could be getting, although it would be at a considerably higher price. I understand it though. Most people just want a sharp blade which works and don't care to find out if what they're getting is good or not. I mean, it's just a few bucks and the blade cuts better than before, right?

My parents used to get their knives sharpened by a dude at a fish stand and I swear they came back half as heavy as they were when they dropped them off! I'm glad to be able to say that they don't have that problem anymore, as I take care of it now; although now they inquire as to why they have to be so sharp and are a bit uncomfortable with having to be more careful now. My bad... :D So, I usually just make them as sharp as they'd be comfortable with.

So I can sharpen my knives myself... that's not the problem. I'm just amazed at how poorly the average knives of today are being treated, yet the world has a heritage of knife sharpening which dates back thousands of years.
 
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Doesn't surprise me, at all, and I also don't blame them. I sharpen all of my knives freehand. If it's a gifted knife (or if I'm doing it for a friend), it might even require a complete reprofile of the blade. That means spending a good amount of time on the bench stones. I use DMT Duosharp stones (x-coarse, coarse, fine, x-fine), followed by a Spyderco ultrafine ceramic stone, followed by a KnivesPlus Strop Blok. I can put a scary sharp, durable, beautiful edge on a knife, but it might take half the afternoon. There is no way I could do that for profit and still charge people low enough that they would be willing to pay. If all I could get was $5 - $10, I'd resort to doing it the easy way, too.
 
I totally get that, but it's not much of a stretch for a sharpening business to use more than one grit on their belt sanders and finish on some leather or whatever... is it?
 
stoffi said:
I totally get that, but it's not much of a stretch for a sharpening business to use more than one grit on their belt sanders and finish on some leather or whatever... is it?
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Actually, adding another grit would close to double the amount of time spent on each knife. If they have only one belt sander, then they have to spend time swapping belts. Since time spent is the most significant cost in knife sharpening, you would either lose most of your profit margin or have to raise prices. The latter option is probably not feasible, as evidenced by this thread- people would not pay much more than a tenner to have their knife sharpened. Above that price point, they will either buy a new cheap knife or take it to the fat dude at the gun show who still charges $3. The demand for edges, so to speak, is highly elastic.

The fundamental problem with the business model is that the people who value a truly sharp (labor intensive) edge are most likely to do it themselves. I think the knife sharpening business is like it is because that is what people accept as a sensible cost/benefit compromise. Personally, I think a "polished toothy" edge like you would get off a coarse belt followed by a power strop works fine for nearly all practical uses (which does not include whittling hair). It's the deepening of the edge angle that kills me.
 
unit said:
Skimo, that is funny and sad at the same time.

I recall a friend going through a similar experience except he LOVED the results. The knife was sharp enough to tear a few hairs out of his arm and he thought it was amazing. The edge also was cooked and insanely thin. By "insanely", I mean that for a super steel it would have been too thin for 90% of the users, but for this mild steel machete that he bought at a hardware store it was beyond stupid. The blade was badly rolled and compressed by the end of the week and its only uses were cutting paper and cardboard around the house.

Truth told, there are guys out there that attend knife and gun shows that do some passable work...you just have to talk, listen, and watch. That said, if you know what to look for, why not just do the job yourself?
Click to expand...

Knowing what result you want is not wedded to knowing how to make it so.
 
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