Mainstream "Professional" Sharpening Businesses Routines Seem VERY Bad

Tom Krein sharpened reground knives to 110 or 120 on a belt and the edges pop hairs. Not sure if he finished with a compound loaded belt. The paper wheels loved by many use 220 grit followed by white compound, two steps only. Commercial sharpeners from CATRA, Tru-Hone, Cozzini, Metalform, and Fazzini use the same coarse grit (120, 170, other) in aluminum oxide, cubic boron nitride, diamond, etc. in one step sharpening. 800 C is around where simple steels austenize, so that is too hot. Highly alloyed stainless and of course high speed steels should be good to at least 500 C. 160 C would be a really low temper for a very simple steel kept hard, most knives will be tempered at no less than 200 C. The rest of the blade does act as a heat sink, but the edge itself can still be over heated by sharpening. But even sharpening on a dry bench stone can get the heat to 500 C at the very apex of the edge.
 
I offer a sharpening service. I use a handheld sander, not a grinder. It has a super worn 220 grit belt, the edge it leaves is more like a 1200 grit but with some deeper scratches. I am pretty experienced at freehand sharpening and get a back bevel to about 16-17 a side. I then do a micro bevel on the sharpmaker at 40incl, I am very careful at this stage, and depending on the steel, the edge will be hair splitting at that stage. I then Strop on plain denim for a few passes to straighten the edge, then a loaded strop for 5 passes per side, and back to denim. It leaves an easily hair splitting edge, several more strokes and it loses bite, but depending on steel, will be able to shave your face. I charge $5 NZD plus 50 cents an inch... for you Americans, that is 4 dollars + 40c an inch. For the customers who appreciate a beautiful edge, I will reprofile on a sander, then use a guided sharpener (that I made) and put a mirror polished bevel on it, with a microbevel to make it stronger and add bite to the knife. I charge 10NZD + $1 an inch...so about $8 plus 80 cents an inch.

Hope that shows you that some people do it very good :D.

Btw, I dont let it overheat, I do 1 pass on the sander at a moderate speed pass, then the other side , by the time I change sides (slowly) it has cooled most the way. I wait 10 seconds about ebery 5 passes to let it cool all the way, even though it is barely warm
 
Robs92XJ said:
Actually, adding another grit would close to double the amount of time spent on each knife. If they have only one belt sander, then they have to spend time swapping belts. Since time spent is the most significant cost in knife sharpening, you would either lose most of your profit margin or have to raise prices. The latter option is probably not feasible, as evidenced by this thread- people would not pay much more than a tenner to have their knife sharpened. Above that price point, they will either buy a new cheap knife or take it to the fat dude at the gun show who still charges $3. The demand for edges, so to speak, is highly elastic.

The fundamental problem with the business model is that the people who value a truly sharp (labor intensive) edge are most likely to do it themselves. I think the knife sharpening business is like it is because that is what people accept as a sensible cost/benefit compromise. Personally, I think a "polished toothy" edge like you would get off a coarse belt followed by a power strop works fine for nearly all practical uses (which does not include whittling hair). It's the deepening of the edge angle that kills me.
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I see your point, but I'm not sure that it would have to be so much more expensive for these businesses to get another machine for let's say a 400 grit finish. These companies sharpen for a vast amount of restaurants and so on, so they should be able to even it out over a short period if they invest in another sharpening step. I have no idea of the numbers, I'm just guessing. I mean, if I bought two belt sanders for like 200USD each, with some belts and whatever… let's say 1000 USD investment for the sake of the argument. So, at 5 USD a pop they would have squared off the investment after sharpening 200 knives, but they are a company, so they can deduct stuff and so on, making it even quicker to break even.

Razorsharp-Travis said:
I offer a sharpening service. I use a handheld sander, not a grinder. It has a super worn 220 grit belt, the edge it leaves is more like a 1200 grit but with some deeper scratches. I am pretty experienced at freehand sharpening and get a back bevel to about 16-17 a side. I then do a micro bevel on the sharpmaker at 40incl, I am very careful at this stage, and depending on the steel, the edge will be hair splitting at that stage. I then Strop on plain denim for a few passes to straighten the edge, then a loaded strop for 5 passes per side, and back to denim. It leaves an easily hair splitting edge, several more strokes and it loses bite, but depending on steel, will be able to shave your face. I charge $5 NZD plus 50 cents an inch... for you Americans, that is 4 dollars + 40c an inch. For the customers who appreciate a beautiful edge, I will reprofile on a sander, then use a guided sharpener (that I made) and put a mirror polished bevel on it, with a microbevel to make it stronger and add bite to the knife. I charge 10NZD + $1 an inch...so about $8 plus 80 cents an inch.

Hope that shows you that some people do it very good .

Btw, I dont let it overheat, I do 1 pass on the sander at a moderate speed pass, then the other side , by the time I change sides (slowly) it has cooled most the way. I wait 10 seconds about ebery 5 passes to let it cool all the way, even though it is barely warm
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OK, so your "mainstream" process is:

*220 grit belt at 16-17° per side
*Micro bevel on Sharpmaker at 20° per side, careful execution
*Strop on plain denim a few passes per side, to straighten the edge
*Strop on loaded strop 5 passes per side
*Strop on denim.

All of this for a normal "mainstream" price. -- Sounds awesome man!

I don't know the economy in NZ, so may I ask you: is your price more expensive than what the kind of companies I'm talking about would charge in your region, or is it around the same price?
 
Stoffi, I am not talking about capital investment in belt sanders or indirect costs of belts. You are correct that those costs will be amortized over many sharpenings and will not amount to much in terms of cost per sharpening. I am talking about the direct labor costs being added to each sharpening. If you have a process where you spend two minutes on a 120 grit belt, you would have to put in that much time again if you add a 600 grit belt to the process. Now you are spending four minutes on each knife instead of two, so the labor costs of each knife have doubled. Another way to look at it is you can only do half as many knives per day. If you do not raise the price, then you only bring in half as much revenue. So we're back to the question of how much will people spend for a better edge. The anecdotal evidence in this thread suggests the answer is "not much". This is not what we knife-lovers want to believe, but in reality we are at the far end of the bell curve.

I am also interested in what the big commercial sharpening outfits charge in NZ, to compare to what Razorsharp Travis charges. For a 4" blade, he would charge $7 NZ ($5.60 'Merican) for the 'standard' edge and $14 NZ ($11.20 'Merican) for a mirror edge. That is truly an outstanding value. I can only imagine that producing the mirror edge with a guided sharpener takes more than twice as long as doing the standard edge. If that's true, then the cost (in time spent) of the miror edge is more than double that of the standard edge, yet the price is exactly double. That would mean the mirror edge is less profitable than the standard edge, which is my argument in a nutshell. Profitability may not be the end-game for Travis, but it probably is for the commerical sharpening companies.
 
a few years ago i had a guy from minnesota send me his knife that he took to a walk in knife shop to get sharpened. he said they used a 2' diameter white wheel of some kind. one side of the blade had a wide edge and the other side was hardly visible. it was closer to how emerson does their chisel grind.

i fixed his knife and sent it back to him. a few years later he tells me he let someone take his knife in to the same shop to have someone else that worked there sharpen it. needless to say it came back to me again.

the best thing anyone can do before handing their knife over to someone for sharpening is to check out some they have done or have them sharpen a few of their knives in front of you.

stoffi, it sounds like you should start a sharpening business where you live. i just got off the phone with a member that is sending me some knives to get cleaned up and sharpened. when i told him what i charge, he said that was not enough for the work i do. i have been charging $1. an inch for a v edge for the past 20 years. if people where you live are willing to pay more, you might want to think about starting up a business.
 
In all reality a worn 220 grit belt followed by felt with some form of compound could easily whip up a very nice edge. You could always let the guy sharpen an old kitchen knife and see how it turns out. All in the hands of the operator.
 
Robs92XJ said:
Stoffi, I am not talking about capital investment in belt sanders or indirect costs of belts. You are correct that those costs will be amortized over many sharpenings and will not amount to much in terms of cost per sharpening. I am talking about the direct labor costs being added to each sharpening. If you have a process where you spend two minutes on a 120 grit belt, you would have to put in that much time again if you add a 600 grit belt to the process. Now you are spending four minutes on each knife instead of two, so the labor costs of each knife have doubled. Another way to look at it is you can only do half as many knives per day. If you do not raise the price, then you only bring in half as much revenue. So we're back to the question of how much will people spend for a better edge. The anecdotal evidence in this thread suggests the answer is "not much". This is not what we knife-lovers want to believe, but in reality we are at the far end of the bell curve.

I am also interested in what the big commercial sharpening outfits charge in NZ, to compare to what Razorsharp Travis charges. For a 4" blade, he would charge $7 NZ ($5.60 'Merican) for the 'standard' edge and $14 NZ ($11.20 'Merican) for a mirror edge. That is truly an outstanding value. I can only imagine that producing the mirror edge with a guided sharpener takes more than twice as long as doing the standard edge. If that's true, then the cost (in time spent) of the miror edge is more than double that of the standard edge, yet the price is exactly double. That would mean the mirror edge is less profitable than the standard edge, which is my argument in a nutshell. Profitability may not be the end-game for Travis, but it probably is for the commerical sharpening companies.
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I see your point and agree with you. It's a business and as such it is all about making the margins work for you in order to make profit.

richard j said:
a few years ago i had a guy from minnesota send me his knife that he took to a walk in knife shop to get sharpened. he said they used a 2' diameter white wheel of some kind. one side of the blade had a wide edge and the other side was hardly visible. it was closer to how emerson does their chisel grind.

i fixed his knife and sent it back to him. a few years later he tells me he let someone take his knife in to the same shop to have someone else that worked there sharpen it. needless to say it came back to me again.

the best thing anyone can do before handing their knife over to someone for sharpening is to check out some they have done or have them sharpen a few of their knives in front of you.

stoffi, it sounds like you should start a sharpening business where you live. i just got off the phone with a member that is sending me some knives to get cleaned up and sharpened. when i told him what i charge, he said that was not enough for the work i do. i have been charging $1. an inch for a v edge for the past 20 years. if people where you live are willing to pay more, you might want to think about starting up a business.
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I'm considering it. I've done quite a few blades freehand for friends and family as a gift here and there and the feedback has been inspiring. If I opened up a business, it would have to be on a small scale though, for enthusiast and others who want a more pampered service; since I'm not sure I could compete with the mainstream businesses. I just can't hand somebody's knife back if I'm not satisfied with it. Having said that, I often just slap on a 400 grit edge and strop it up a bit with compound for those that will not respect the hours I've put into a polished edge, i.e. banging the edge against degrading surfaces, leaving the knife in the sink etc. I do my best on the knives which belong to owners who appreciate and respect the work by treating the knife in the appropriate way, since it's done as a favor and not by charge.

HeavyHanded said:
In all reality a worn 220 grit belt followed by felt with some form of compound could easily whip up a very nice edge. You could always let the guy sharpen an old kitchen knife and see how it turns out. All in the hands of the operator.
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Yup, you're right. I was just amazed at how simplified the process is.
 
there is also very little point in polished edges for most customers of commercial sharpeners, as you said

banging the edge against degrading surfaces, leaving the knife in the sink etc.
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in high volume kitchens and abattoirs there won't be much use/need of a polished edge. Same for laborers on a work site who use their knives for a variety of tasks and regularly damage edges.

There is a market somewhere between the $3 a blade grinders and the $100 an inch polishers, probably not a big one.

Also, Is there any particular reason to use a worn belt instead of a higher grit? While the belt cuts more slowly, it would seem it also builds heat as the abrasive particles have lost their bite and there is more friction for the amount of sharpening done. I read about the use of worn belts, and just wonder if there is another reason for it I am unaware of.
 
I agree that a polished edge is not worth it for most laborers like construction workers, chefs and so on, but perhaps sushi-chefs would benefit from it.

I'd suppose the worn belt is just a byproduct and not a deliberate choice between a higher grit belt. Robs92XJ brought up that they would lose time on changing grits, which is probably true when they batch hundreds of knives in a day.
 
Unfortunately that is pretty much the norm. I have seen many sharpeners that are so focused on a fast turn around that they let the quality hit the floor. In some cases I have actually been embarrassed FOR the sharpener. I will be the first to say it, operating a small business is not easy but that's still no excuse to offer a sub standard product. I can't tell you how many people are hesitant to give me their knives after telling me horror stories about sharpeners they have used in the past. It's a shame when people don't take the time to do a good job, or even know what they are doing... It's not fair to the consumer, whether they know what a sharp knife is or not.
 
All the above is somewhat depressing to read, especially when i know so many people with a chefs knife worth hundreds of dollars that they get sharpened at a local kitchen shop for $5. So what are the names or websites of some people that can actually do justice to a blade? if you wanted a mirror finish put on your sebenza (by someone else) where would you send it?
 
Yeah it is depressing, but there is land up ahead; since there are plenty of sharpeners on this forum who would be more than able to do your knives justice.
 
fatherhudson said:
All the above is somewhat depressing to read, especially when i know so many people with a chefs knife worth hundreds of dollars that they get sharpened at a local kitchen shop for $5. So what are the names or websites of some people that can actually do justice to a blade? if you wanted a mirror finish put on your sebenza (by someone else) where would you send it?
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I just worked on a Sebenza yesterday. That's one of my favorite blades, been wanting one for years! I would be more than happy to work on it. Send me an email so we can work something out - seattle.edge@comcast.net
 
I know Albert from another site and his work is very highly regarded.


I would also like to add something that my dad instilled in my from a very young age, 'A sharp knife is far safer than a dull knife. Both will cut you easily but the sharp knife requires less work and muscle for cutting tasks which inherently makes it safer. '
 
Scurvy092 said:
I would also like to add something that my dad instilled in my from a very young age, 'A sharp knife is far safer than a dull knife. Both will cut you easily but the sharp knife requires less work and muscle for cutting tasks which inherently makes it safer. '
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I was always taught that a sharp knife was safer but my mom said it was because a dull knife would open up a worse cut that wouldn't heal as quickly and would be more likely to require stitches. now i wonder if thats really true?

but to get back on topic, i'm going to send out some of my knives to forum recommended sharpeners in the next few days and i'll report back about the difference in edge quality. assuming the "professional" sharpening services didn't already destroy my heat treat too bad :(
 
Thought I would throw in some comments about the "average knife sharpening services" since I own a cookware shop and we offer knife sharpening.

We have a variety of stones ranging from 240 up through 6000 grit. Also a couple of grinders and belt sanders for fixing broken tips or when a bolster needs a bit of grinding down on an old blade. For probably 80% of the knives we sharpen, we use our two Tru-Hone machines. One has 600 grit stones in it and the other 1000 grit and a water bath that helps eliminate overheating the blade. The angle I put on the knife depends on the knife and brand. I know most of the major bands, what steel they use, and the angle they put on their knives. Cost for something like a 3 inch paring is $3 and an 8 inch chef's knife is $5.

We have people walk in with absolute junk that is so dull you can't tell which side used to have an edge on it. In some cases, the sharpening costs more than they paid for the blade when it was new. Others bring in higher end mass produced blades (Wusthof, Shun, etc).

How I sharpen a knife depends a great deal on what it looks like when I get it. I am not going to bother putting a nice polished edge on a knife that has a bend tip, big chips all along the edge and pits from being run through the dishwasher. On those, I put back the factory edge using the Tru-Hones. If it is a nice knife and has been treated well I will do more to it than just run it through the machines.

One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn more about hand made knives. I am especially enjoying some of the threads about sharpening. Although I doubt I will ever see any hand made knives through our knife sharpening service. People who really appreciate a fine knives learn to sharpen them themselves.
 
Each and every knife's edge needs to be assessed for its current sharpness, distortion, chipping along the edge and the existing edge angle "before" it gets sharpened on a moving belt. The reason people who sharpen for a living use belt machines is, the work is accomplished in a hurry. If you don't begin the process by finding the condition and edge angle, there is no way to proceed with precision.
When a batch of knives comes into our shop for sharpening, they are accessed and the condition/edge angle in degrees per side/ and recommended grit progression is written on a sticky and placed on the blade. When it gets to the grinder after cleaning, the sticky is read and the proper starting grit is mounted on the belt grinder and the best edge angle is set in the Bubble Jig. The selection of belts I use is 120 gator 220 gator 400 flex back followed by 600 grit cork. I finish on cardboard or hard felt. If the person wants a higher polish he can get it for a charge. Some blades may start at 120 grit while the next one may start with the 600 cork. Knowing the existing edge angle and edge condition is critical if you don't want to overgrind the edge, wasting precious steel.

We will be posting a new sharpening video, featuring the Bubble Jig here on BF, over the next few days. I'll use a 2hp KMG to demonstrate.
 
Interesting thread. I once took a cheap knife that I don't car about to a reputable sharpener.

The knife went in like this


And came out like this


The guy never even examined or tested the edge at all , it was hair whittling sharp going in , and literally butter knife dull coming out. But I kind of expected it. Hence it was a knife I didn't care about too much. When I asked him what he used he said he uses "machines"

He charged me 6.30$ , heres what I charge 10$ to do. Nice clean edge off a 1200 Atoma...
 
I don't know of any places around me that know or care to know how to properly sharpen a knife. what these places do seems sharp to the average person, so they have no need to change.
 
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