Makers- Full Time? / Part Time?

Next year will be my 5th year of being a fulltime maker. :)

It has beeen quite a learning expericance. I believe that most people that take the plunge and become self employed deal with the same stresses and issues no matter what the proffesion.

For me, becoming a full time maker was the direction that I always wanted to head. But it took me 9 years of being a part-time maker to build up my customer base and devolp my skills and own style, and start to get some recognition.

When I though that I had a sufficant back-log, I quit my Gun store manager job and went full-time. It was possibjly the scariest thing I had ever done. Talk about a future of uncertainty! It made me realize that many people live under the illusion or premise of "Security"....nothing is secure when it comes to work or relationships.

To work form home and being self employed, requires alot of work ethic, determination, perseverance and dedication to succeed. It also requires alot of sacrifice ( I lost my marriage) to continue to build the buisness so it can prosper over time. You have to have a many basic skills like business knowledge, sales, communication, money management, and marketing to name a few. This is on top of knowing how to make knives and keep advancing your knif making skills.

When you take time off...you don't get paid, no vacation pay,sick leave or mental health days! Financailly, you really need to plan ahead or you'll get yourself in trouble.

For me, Since I work from home, I'm always at work. I can't leave the "office" to head home. I'm always working...phone calls, web presence, answering e-mails, running errends, post office, packaging, ordering supplys etc.... This may take some time form some to adjust too. It's not esay coming form a 9-5 job.

Well, theres alot more to it, but It's hard to address all the responsiblities in a couple of post...

Good Luck! :)
 
Thanks for starting this thread Kevin.
I am a part-time maker and have been for a few years. Going full-time until retirement from my day job really isn't very likely. Although it has crossed my mind. Part-time knife making allows me to concentrate on something other than the 9 to 5 stuff. I do take knife making seriously and try to keep regular hours in the shop. Most on my vacation and sick time are scheduled for shows and hammer-ins. I think one of the nice things about being part-time is that I can invest all the profits that are made back into the business.

Pete Crowl
ABS Journeyman Smith
 
pete c. said:
Thanks for starting this thread Kevin.
I am a part-time maker and have been for a few years. Going full-time until retirement from my day job really isn't very likely. Although it has crossed my mind. Part-time knife making allows me to concentrate on something other than the 9 to 5 stuff. I do take knife making seriously and try to keep regular hours in the shop. Most on my vacation and sick time are scheduled for shows and hammer-ins. I think one of the nice things about being part-time is that I can invest all the profits that are made back into the business.

Pete Crowl
ABS Journeyman Smith
Click to expand...

Well Pete, you have something to look forward to and to work toward, and that is worth a lot in itself. Good luck to you. :thumbup::)
 
I've been working on knives on the weekends for four years. Wish I had more time to work on knives. This thread is very informational. thanks
 
Kevin I see this thread pop up from time to time and have always believed the subject to have to many variables from maker to maker. Is the maker retired, wife works or is this the family sole income.

Other variables include what the makers status is in the knife industry, demand for his knives etc.

For me personally I am being forced out of the Army due to a injuries, its not a sudden thing as I have had time to prepare and put myself in the best possible position to make the transition. Some things I have done to make it go are 100% of all my past profit have gone into purchasing all big ticket items such as grinders, tooling, heat treat ovens and a robust surplus of materials steel, handle materials etc.

I have sat down with our financial advisor and developed a business plan, that address's many of the issues such as health insurance for the kids, college funds as well as general things such as just paying the bills. My wife and I will soon reverse rolls she will and wants to return to the professional workforce and I will become Mr Mom to our 2 children:).

I personally have not been making knives for that long 2 years total, so for me the business side has been a steep learning curve, and like Shane said you are never away from the job, it does put a strain on relationships at times and the burn out is a real foe.

So for me the opportunity is here and my mindset is "what do I have to lose" I have many trades to fall back on should this not work out.

Spencer
 
This subject offers important insight to the world of knifemakers and I have gained a lot of understanding of other makers and the collectors that help support their work. These different levels are what I went through and have no bearing on how good a maker’s work is or one level being any better than another. This is just what I went through.

Since I started making knives in 1975 I have gone through 4 basic levels. Each was an important step getting me to where I am now.

1st – Hobby knifemaker. I was at this level for about 10 years. I had a full time job that paid all the bills and offered a little extra to put into my hobby. At this level I made knives as gifts, blanket prizes and would sell a few. Success or failure was based on whether I was having fun or not. There was little pressure to build a name or style and I could do about what I wanted to in regard to pushing further. I learned a lot about making knives and a little about being in business. This was a comfortable level of knifemaking and I suspect a lot of makers are here and satisfied to stay.

2nd – Part Time Maker. I was at this level for about 3 to 4 years. At this level I begin thinking about working toward making this a career. I studied improving my methods and invested all the money I made with knives into equipment and materials. I still had a full time job that paid the bills and expenses such as electricity, automobiles and insurance. I started keeping customer records and started a bookkeeping system for tracking expenditures and for taxes. I produced a brochure and started going to Craft Shows, Knife and Gun Shows as well as Black Powder gatherings. During this time I also started building a recognizable style. This was a very comfortable level to be at with little pressure.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level and are very happy to stay here. A good maker can build a good name at this level and stay as busy as they want to with a little promotional effort as long as the work being produced is good and priced competitively.

3rd – Full Time Maker with Additional Income. I was at this level for about 2 years. This is where I was a full time maker with a spouse that had a full time job. I paid all of my knife expenses and part of the household bills. My insurance was carried by my wife’s company insurance policy. At this level I begin to feel real pressure to build my name and business. I started advertising in Knife and Black Powder publications. I had articles written and sent them to the same publications. I added Knife Shows to my travels. I still re-invested all the money I could back into the business for equipment, materials and promotion. I hired an accountant to handle my tax preparation. I continued to improve my customer list and became computerized. I did mailings to my customers with catalogs and show invitations. During this period my customer base grew at a faster pace because I put more efforts in this area. My presence at Shows begin to grow and I built strong relations ships with others in the business. I joined the Knifemakers Guild and the ABS.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level too. They are making Knives full time and either have a part time job, a working spouse or a retirement income. This could also be a very comfortable level to be at for the long term. Knife sales are important but not necessarily critical to survival. A slow time can be dealt with without having to make major changes in ones lifestyle.

4th – Full Time Maker with No Additional Income. This is the level I am at now and have been since 1988. There is a lot of pressure to keep moving forward and continue building my knifemaking skills and business practices. The most important thing I did here was to add Karen to the business. She brought a lot of business skills and makes Sheaths that really put our work in a whole new league. We have to keep complete records that are an important tool for keeping the business end straight. They are vital for tax preparation and research into expenses. Knowing where your money goes is critical in knowing how to price our work. Pricing by what someone else does or what you think the market will bear is short sighted and will likely cause problems in the future. This is a difficult business to be financially successful in as a totally independent maker. There is a lot of competition and very few customers really need what we do. By having to derive your entire income from the knife business a maker is forced to get up and go to work whether you want to or not. You have to conduct business in an acceptable way so not to negatively affect your reputation. And you have to pay taxes to stay out of jail. You must put your time and money into areas that gain more than they cost. Generally you must stay aware of all aspects of your career. We invest money into new equipment that will make our work better and more efficient. We invest in new market areas traveling to non-knife shows and advertising in non-knife publications. We also look into new knife related areas and consider expansion into these areas. We have debt but it is controllable. We have life and health insurance. It is expensive but not being insured is sort of like Skydiving without a reserve chute.

I suspect very few makers are on this level. It is the most difficult to survive in. It does not make your work more sought after. It does not put you in any kind of exclusive club. But if a maker can handle the pressure it can be very rewarding mentally and somewhat rewarding financially.

Daniel
 
As a side note, it's interesting to think about the effect all the part-time makers have on pricing. Once you remove the pressure to make a living, makers are more free to charge smaller amounts. This makes it extra hard for full time makers, having to compete with hobbyists, many of whom also produce quality work.

I wonder how it compares in more established crafts. I suspect that as (if) the knife-collecting becomes more mature and mainstream, the ratio of part time to full time will (could) change, and prices increase.
 
DWinkler said:
This subject offers important insight to the world of knifemakers and I have gained a lot of understanding of other makers and the collectors that help support their work. These different levels are what I went through and have no bearing on how good a maker’s work is or one level being any better than another. This is just what I went through.

Since I started making knives in 1975 I have gone through 4 basic levels. Each was an important step getting me to where I am now.

1st – Hobby knifemaker. I was at this level for about 10 years. I had a full time job that paid all the bills and offered a little extra to put into my hobby. At this level I made knives as gifts, blanket prizes and would sell a few. Success or failure was based on whether I was having fun or not. There was little pressure to build a name or style and I could do about what I wanted to in regard to pushing further. I learned a lot about making knives and a little about being in business. This was a comfortable level of knifemaking and I suspect a lot of makers are here and satisfied to stay.

2nd – Part Time Maker. I was at this level for about 3 to 4 years. At this level I begin thinking about working toward making this a career. I studied improving my methods and invested all the money I made with knives into equipment and materials. I still had a full time job that paid the bills and expenses such as electricity, automobiles and insurance. I started keeping customer records and started a bookkeeping system for tracking expenditures and for taxes. I produced a brochure and started going to Craft Shows, Knife and Gun Shows as well as Black Powder gatherings. During this time I also started building a recognizable style. This was a very comfortable level to be at with little pressure.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level and are very happy to stay here. A good maker can build a good name at this level and stay as busy as they want to with a little promotional effort as long as the work being produced is good and priced competitively.

3rd – Full Time Maker with Additional Income. I was at this level for about 2 years. This is where I was a full time maker with a spouse that had a full time job. I paid all of my knife expenses and part of the household bills. My insurance was carried by my wife’s company insurance policy. At this level I begin to feel real pressure to build my name and business. I started advertising in Knife and Black Powder publications. I had articles written and sent them to the same publications. I added Knife Shows to my travels. I still re-invested all the money I could back into the business for equipment, materials and promotion. I hired an accountant to handle my tax preparation. I continued to improve my customer list and became computerized. I did mailings to my customers with catalogs and show invitations. During this period my customer base grew at a faster pace because I put more efforts in this area. My presence at Shows begin to grow and I built strong relations ships with others in the business. I joined the Knifemakers Guild and the ABS.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level too. They are making Knives full time and either have a part time job, a working spouse or a retirement income. This could also be a very comfortable level to be at for the long term. Knife sales are important but not necessarily critical to survival. A slow time can be dealt with without having to make major changes in ones lifestyle.

4th – Full Time Maker with No Additional Income. This is the level I am at now and have been since 1988. There is a lot of pressure to keep moving forward and continue building my knifemaking skills and business practices. The most important thing I did here was to add Karen to the business. She brought a lot of business skills and makes Sheaths that really put our work in a whole new league. We have to keep complete records that are an important tool for keeping the business end straight. They are vital for tax preparation and research into expenses. Knowing where your money goes is critical in knowing how to price our work. Pricing by what someone else does or what you think the market will bear is short sighted and will likely cause problems in the future. This is a difficult business to be financially successful in as a totally independent maker. There is a lot of competition and very few customers really need what we do. By having to derive your entire income from the knife business a maker is forced to get up and go to work whether you want to or not. You have to conduct business in an acceptable way so not to negatively affect your reputation. And you have to pay taxes to stay out of jail. You must put your time and money into areas that gain more than they cost. Generally you must stay aware of all aspects of your career. We invest money into new equipment that will make our work better and more efficient. We invest in new market areas traveling to non-knife shows and advertising in non-knife publications. We also look into new knife related areas and consider expansion into these areas. We have debt but it is controllable. We have life and health insurance. It is expensive but not being insured is sort of like Skydiving without a reserve chute.

I suspect very few makers are on this level. It is the most difficult to survive in. It does not make your work more sought after. It does not put you in any kind of exclusive club. But if a maker can handle the pressure it can be very rewarding mentally and somewhat rewarding financially.

Daniel
Click to expand...

Daniel, I don't think there could be a better summery of a transition from a hobbyist maker to one of the most talented and highly respected full time knifemakers in the industry.

Your laying out your 32 year career in the four stages helps newer makers who are uncertain as to their future to benefit in evaluating their current position and in helping to determine which direction they may ultimately want to take or not take.

Even though we all know of the trash that can be found on the INTERNET these days, Daniel's and other maker's post on this thread are examples of how productive, helpful and worthwhile some forums can be.

Those who will just write off or condemn forums and those who participate should experience them first rather than "refusing to read anything written on any forum".
 
Daniel, thank you for your posts they are well thought and always informative. Plus you make a neck of a knife:D:thumbup:
 
DWinkler said:
This subject offers important insight to the world of knifemakers and I have gained a lot of understanding of other makers and the collectors that help support their work. These different levels are what I went through and have no bearing on how good a maker’s work is or one level being any better than another. This is just what I went through.

Since I started making knives in 1975 I have gone through 4 basic levels. Each was an important step getting me to where I am now.

1st – Hobby knifemaker. I was at this level for about 10 years. I had a full time job that paid all the bills and offered a little extra to put into my hobby. At this level I made knives as gifts, blanket prizes and would sell a few. Success or failure was based on whether I was having fun or not. There was little pressure to build a name or style and I could do about what I wanted to in regard to pushing further. I learned a lot about making knives and a little about being in business. This was a comfortable level of knifemaking and I suspect a lot of makers are here and satisfied to stay.

2nd – Part Time Maker. I was at this level for about 3 to 4 years. At this level I begin thinking about working toward making this a career. I studied improving my methods and invested all the money I made with knives into equipment and materials. I still had a full time job that paid the bills and expenses such as electricity, automobiles and insurance. I started keeping customer records and started a bookkeeping system for tracking expenditures and for taxes. I produced a brochure and started going to Craft Shows, Knife and Gun Shows as well as Black Powder gatherings. During this time I also started building a recognizable style. This was a very comfortable level to be at with little pressure.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level and are very happy to stay here. A good maker can build a good name at this level and stay as busy as they want to with a little promotional effort as long as the work being produced is good and priced competitively.

3rd – Full Time Maker with Additional Income. I was at this level for about 2 years. This is where I was a full time maker with a spouse that had a full time job. I paid all of my knife expenses and part of the household bills. My insurance was carried by my wife’s company insurance policy. At this level I begin to feel real pressure to build my name and business. I started advertising in Knife and Black Powder publications. I had articles written and sent them to the same publications. I added Knife Shows to my travels. I still re-invested all the money I could back into the business for equipment, materials and promotion. I hired an accountant to handle my tax preparation. I continued to improve my customer list and became computerized. I did mailings to my customers with catalogs and show invitations. During this period my customer base grew at a faster pace because I put more efforts in this area. My presence at Shows begin to grow and I built strong relations ships with others in the business. I joined the Knifemakers Guild and the ABS.

I suspect a lot of makers are at this level too. They are making Knives full time and either have a part time job, a working spouse or a retirement income. This could also be a very comfortable level to be at for the long term. Knife sales are important but not necessarily critical to survival. A slow time can be dealt with without having to make major changes in ones lifestyle.

4th – Full Time Maker with No Additional Income. This is the level I am at now and have been since 1988. There is a lot of pressure to keep moving forward and continue building my knifemaking skills and business practices. The most important thing I did here was to add Karen to the business. She brought a lot of business skills and makes Sheaths that really put our work in a whole new league. We have to keep complete records that are an important tool for keeping the business end straight. They are vital for tax preparation and research into expenses. Knowing where your money goes is critical in knowing how to price our work. Pricing by what someone else does or what you think the market will bear is short sighted and will likely cause problems in the future. This is a difficult business to be financially successful in as a totally independent maker. There is a lot of competition and very few customers really need what we do. By having to derive your entire income from the knife business a maker is forced to get up and go to work whether you want to or not. You have to conduct business in an acceptable way so not to negatively affect your reputation. And you have to pay taxes to stay out of jail. You must put your time and money into areas that gain more than they cost. Generally you must stay aware of all aspects of your career. We invest money into new equipment that will make our work better and more efficient. We invest in new market areas traveling to non-knife shows and advertising in non-knife publications. We also look into new knife related areas and consider expansion into these areas. We have debt but it is controllable. We have life and health insurance. It is expensive but not being insured is sort of like Skydiving without a reserve chute.

I suspect very few makers are on this level. It is the most difficult to survive in. It does not make your work more sought after. It does not put you in any kind of exclusive club. But if a maker can handle the pressure it can be very rewarding mentally and somewhat rewarding financially.

Daniel
Click to expand...

That is one of the best and most informative posts I've ever read on any knife forum. People interested in knifemaking as a business should print it
out and hang it on their grinder!

Personally, I'm in step 3. My wife is employed and I still do some design jobs here and there...often as I can...as well some machining jobs too.

Anyone considering knifemaking as a job should very seriously consider their financial situation. If you have a "real job" that pays a good salary with benefits and isn't seriously killing you, then DON'T QUIT that job for knifemaking! It is very very difficult to realize enough PROFIT from knifemaking to support anything like a lower middle class life style.
 
I have only been messing around withknifemaking for two years, but iam contemplating going fulltime at some point sooner rather than later.....like when I can consistently create knives of decent and consistent quality that will sell....lol. I am in a postion where I don't have to worry about insurance and will have some side income. But the challenge is still daunting. A lot of guys with a LOT of talent have tried it for a while and gone back part time. For me, the business plan portion is not that big of deal......done it before. I know with the same certainty that i know that the sun will rise in the east tommorrow morning, that I will make little or no money for the first couple of years.:D All of what I take in and then some will be spent on setting up the new shop, continuing to improve my skills and advertising and promoting the business. I am looking forward to doing this......crazy,ain't it?:p
 
If you don't need to make living from it, knifemaking may be just the ticket! Those folks not having that luxury, should think twice. My health insurance alone costs over $600 a month...then there's the shop rent, etc etc.
 
I was taking an intro class at Washington, Ar under the instructors, Joe Keesler and Jim Jackson. We got into a conversation about the pro's and con's of being a full time maker. It was during that conversation that Jim Jackson made the statement that "the key to being a successful full time maker is to marry a rich woman." Since that time I have come to understand that he may not have been joking. But I married for love instead of money (hope my wife reads this) so I will plan to stay a part time maker until I can retire from the day job Hopefully that will be in a couple of years.
Thanks Kevin, this is a great thread
 
It's tuff just making knives on a part time bases ,alot of competetion at the J/S level , just trying to sell enough knives at show just to cover cost is tuff.
Shawn Ellis
 
We have life and health insurance. It is expensive but not being insured is sort of like Skydiving without a reserve chute.

Daniel
Click to expand...
Hi Dan,
We have life insurance and a hospital income policy for emergencies. We just don't have a typical medical health insurance plan like most companies/employers provide.

We pay for doctor visits out of pocket. I trade knives for dental work :D
 
don......i'd be more than willing to do dental work for you in trade for knives.....i'm not a dentist by trade but what the heck..... i need some knives!....ryan
 
ryan9977 said:
don......i'd be more than willing to do dental work for you in trade for knives.....i'm not a dentist by trade but what the heck..... i need some knives!....ryan
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer Ryan but as much as I don't like to go to the dentist, I really need the work to be done right the first time :) :D

We have a dentist here among us and I just happen to live close to him :thumbup:
 
Joss said:
As a side note, it's interesting to think about the effect all the part-time makers have on pricing. Once you remove the pressure to make a living, makers are more free to charge smaller amounts. This makes it extra hard for full time makers, having to compete with hobbyists, many of whom also produce quality work.
Click to expand...

Shawn Ellis said:
It's tuff just making knives on a part time bases ,alot of competetion at the J/S level , just trying to sell enough knives at show just to cover cost is tuff.
Shawn Ellis
Click to expand...

Kind of the unpopular point, I was trying to make during Keith's "purchasing from lesser known makers" thread. There's only so many custom knife purchasing dollars out there. With so many new/hobbyist makers coming on the scene offering what seems to be a lot of knife for the money, even the established full timers and established part time smiths such as Shawn, Lin, Nick, Don Mc (just to name a few) must be feeling the heat or at least having to think long & hard before going full time.
 
kevin...i agree with you on that.....there are alot of nice knives out there.....there are so many makers that are not "hot" and they produce nice knives at nice prices.....i find myself looking at newer makers more and more.....i don't follow a knife collecting strategy thinking about what a knife will be worth in ten years....i buy what i like and i use some....some stay locked up.....i think part of it is some newer makers might be in the situation where they don't NEED the money as much as a full time maker and sometimes the newer maker wins out.....ryan
 
I went full time due to the company I worked for going out of business unexpectedly. No ins. no benefits and a market that is not always good I got another full time job. As a part time maker I take very few orders but enjoy the freedom of making what I want. I also teach at a few weekend knife making schools that individuals put on which I love to do. I do miss teaching with Cookie at the school in Old Washington but I am unable to do so now.Being full time was great but I wasn't able to meet my requirements of what I wanted to make Having said all of that you have to make up your on mind as to being full or part time as not every one is cut out to be a full time knife maker which reflects on no knife maker be they full or part time. To each their own.
Reggie
 
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